Once again, we welcome you back to TheBLAST Podcast, where we engage the topics that you are thinking about as a disciple of Jesus Christ. We serve Him in the Potter's House Church of Virginia Beach, an affiliate of CFM Ministries of Prescott, AZ.
We share an encouraging email from a new listener, Aron, from Prescott, AZ. We are so grateful for the hundreds of new listeners that we seem to pick up each and every week. We can't wait to hear more feedback like this from you. Please don't be a stranger. We need your encouragement!
Part I - The Case for Church Discipline
Pastor Adam begins with a sports illustration.
What would it be like if a basketball coach lowered the rim, shortened the three-point and foul lines? Would it make his team better? Maybe only in their own minds. That's why standards are so critical to maintain in any arena of life.
What is Church Discipline?
Samson lost his power when he allowed himself to be morally corrupted. What a perfect picture of so much of the church world.
Dave’s sermon illustration from a few weeks ago.
Discipline is the evidence of a relationship.
1 Corinthians 5:1-2 NLT
There are times that church discipline is very, very necessary.
Part II - Kamikaze Pilots vs. Restoring Pilots
How to survive a time of church discipline:
- Don’t use the time out of church for more evil
- Back to the Basics
- Come back Well
Close with the illustration of the Prodigal Son in Like 15
Part III - An Exciting Announcement
We are looking forward to the future of TheBLAST Podcast.
We have some big goals for the listeners which include new equipment and a guarantee for future episodes!
Thanks again for listening!
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Speaker 1:0:01On this episode of the blast podcast we discussed the topic of church discipline what to do and how to react when someone gets put out of the church. And we discussed the goal of correction ultimately to bring someone back the spirit of restoration.
Speaker 2:0:14All that and more coming up now on the blast podcast Pastor Adam drag. Mr. DAVID SMITH are blasting across the Internet over the practical application of God's word. For our lives. Like the Web we're blasting off on this edition.
Speaker 3:0:36All right we welcome you back to the blast podcast this is episode 40 entitled Raising the bar.
Speaker 4:0:43Yes hello and welcome back to the blast. We're glad that you're here with us.
Speaker 5:0:47Why are we doing this. What is the blast about. Well it's to be a blessing to the body of Christ. We're talking disciples pastors and Christians everywhere in general on this podcast we really want to give you the subject matter that you can use when you're on those long car rides like say you're going to a Men's Discipleship or something like that where you can have something to actually talk about because you know especially men on those long car rides. We like to just be silent.
Speaker 6:1:18Yeah. And the whole reason that we've gone into our fortieth episode now of the black podcast is that we have found that those particular conversations tend to be the most fruitful the ones that you will remember going forward and the ones that hopefully will help you in your Christian walk and in your discipleship journey. So we are so glad that you're here with us tonight.
Speaker 5:1:42That's right. So you can connect with us through Facebook through Twitter Instagram. All three of which is at the blast podcast and please provide us some feedback on iTunes or through the podcast app of your choice that really helps us especially with algorithm's things like that. So give us a review and tell us what you like what you don't like. And of course there's also Alexa.
Speaker 7:2:12Yes. If you've got an Alexa device also they have the Alexa app that you can put on your smartphone. Some people like that. So we've discovered that the previous instructions that we've been giving you were incomplete. There was one little thing that you have to do before before the little command that you can give to Alexa. So first of all you have to enable a skill. The name of the skill is called any pod. So if you will ask Alexa to enable the any Pade skill and then after that you can say Alexa ask any iPod to play the blast podcast and when you do that it'll automatically search through the interweb. And discover like a needle in a haystack. This little old podcast buried way down below and we'll be able to play through your amazon products.
Speaker 4:3:02And then it'll take over your life. Always listening.
Speaker 5:3:07Also of course Google podcast app which is now in the Play Store stitcher Spotify. There's other podcast apps. Cast box is the one I use. And so whatever your podcast app of choice we're glad you're here and please feel free to leave us a review also you can e-mail us.
Speaker 7:3:27Yes speaking of e-mail we got an email this week that I would like to share with our audience tonight. The e-mail address if you'd like to shoot us a message is the blast at mail dot com. That was the blast at mailbomb and we did get an email this week from from a brother over in Prescott Arizona. His name is Aaron and we want to give him a shout out tonight because his little e-mail is actually the reason why we're here this evening. Yeah taking taking the time to produce another episode for you. Let me share this with you. He says My name is Aaron. I really like the podcast. It's really encouraging to hear some godly men especially from our fellowship tackles some of the current events and hear what you guys have to say about the political atmosphere and how we as Christians should approach it with a biblical perspective.
Speaker 7:4:18He says I'm from the Prescott church and grew that grew up there until I went to the Marine Corps and went to the oceanside church for about four years. I'm back in Prescott now and sharing your podcast to my friends back in Oceanside. And the ones here in Prescott keep up the good work. It is really awesome to listen to what you guys have to say. I binge. This is crazy. I've binge listened to all the episodes when I discovered it. I know you guys are busy but it would be great if you guys could do more. I'm always looking them up to see if there are any new ones. So that is why we're here tonight. Aaron got his right back on the horse. Thank you Aaron for.
Speaker 8:4:57It's hard to believe somebody could binge.
Speaker 7:5:00I know it's frightening to think about frightening. To me it would be like Chinese water torture or something. But anyway we're glad that you appreciate the things that we have to say and this podcast format is so I have to be honest with our audience. You know I am kind of like a podcast addict. There's there's an app with that very name that totally describes me because I find so much value in hearing everyday voices and and learning so much from them so we hope that we can be part of your podcast feed. If you have friends like Aaron does that you think would appreciate the blast podcast. We hope that you'll do the same and share it with them. So we have some some announcements coming up. Yes we're gonna be. We're going to be sharing with you some announcements at the end of this episode so you better stay tuned because at the end we want to share with you some some interesting developments about the blast podcast. So stick around for that. And now we want to introduce to you the theme of this podcast episode Episode number 40 that we have called raising the bar so that title for me it comes from the illustration that I commonly like to use and that my church has heard more than one time.
Speaker 9:6:24But you know you know the value of a good illustration. Just use it early and often if it's a good one right.
Speaker 10:6:31So Jesus used lots of illustrations and I'm sure that he repeated them from one city to the next because they were so good. But anyway here's my illustration that I'd like to share with you. New a new coach takes over a high school basketball team first year that he is a coach. The team does terribly. They lose they lose. I don't know how many games of basketball high school but all of them all except two. OK. They only won two games in the last season. So now it's time it's theirs. It's the midseason or the the in-between season time and now it's time for the coach to pick his new team and to train them and get them ready for the next season. So I proposed to you two ways that the coach can prepare for next season.
Speaker 11:7:20Option number one he could do what most basketball coaches do go back to the basics begin to teach how to dribble begin to teach how to shoot.
Speaker 12:7:31Begin running drills begin play up passing all the various things that basketball players need to know so well and practice hard and work his players and make sure that they're conditioned well until the season begins.
Speaker 10:7:46That would be option number one option number two would be that the coach could lower the basketball rim by a foot. He could bring in the three point line by a couple of feet and he could shorten the distance of the foul line by a foot. Now this strategy seems to be far more effective.
Speaker 13:8:09I think we of the free throw line.
Speaker 4:8:12Yeah yeah yeah yeah bring it a little closer. You know the foul line fouls can happen anywhere. The Free Throw the free throw the free throw line. OK. If you bring that in another foot you know.
Speaker 12:8:24And so what happens is then you know all of the same players that were there from last year they don't have to work as hard.
Speaker 14:8:30They can just you know it's going to be a whole lot easier to to score more points and to get the ball in the basket and they're not going to have to do as many drills because obviously they're not going to be running as much with those lines in place. So Dave what do you think would the effect be of option number two.
Speaker 15:8:50Well I know for me I'd become a much better basketball. So would I. As long as the other team played by the same rules every other team played by the same rules.
Speaker 10:8:59Now see that's where the problem comes in because when that team starts their next season and they're going to face another team who has been training on the the the correct dimensions and the correct distances then all of a sudden all of your training will seem to be very ineffective and you will get not better you will get worse you've gotten better in your own mind but worse in reality.
Speaker 16:9:26And that is the reason why standards are so critical in life. Yes. OK so we are talking about standards in the church. We live in a time in a generation where standards are something that is is something is looked down upon is frowned upon by many in the church today is something that is our seems.
Speaker 12:9:50Yeah seems archaic old testament pastor. Those are rules and regulations are so pharisaical you know don't you know we are under liberty we have liberty.
Speaker 17:10:01In Jesus Grace we're under grace and that means that we can shorten the the free throw line.
Speaker 10:10:09That means that we can you know we can redraw the lines of morality in church so that way we can allow more people to come in right because we want or we want more people. We don't want less people we want more people to come to the church right. And if we lower the standards that means more people can can come in and without any problems.
Speaker 8:10:30Well what's the problem with that Dave.
Speaker 17:10:35Where do I begin. My goodness. The problem is that Jesus is coming back one day and he's looking for a church that does not have spot wrinkle. Right. And so it's like facing that other team who's been training the whole summer on the correct standards and you're going to get blown out.
Speaker 9:10:52The same is true in the church that if we lower standards we actually become weaker as a church we become weaker morally we become weaker ethically spiritually and in nearly every way that you can think of and more than that we become so powerless as a church and so so much of the church world does not practice standards and especially does not practice church discipline.
Speaker 16:11:18And so we wanted to present to you the case for church discipline and why raising the bar is better than lowering the bar. And so Dave why don't we first tackle this question.
Speaker 9:11:30Why do we believe that church discipline is necessary and we should take a minute to define what we mean tonight when we're saying church discipline.
Speaker 13:11:40Yeah because you may like I did think oh discipline you mean read my Bible every day pray every day go to church when church is happening you know be disciplined. No no no. What we're talking about is disciplinary action that that the church takes with somebody who's compromised or sinning. So that's what that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 18:12:07So the the reasons why it is necessary. And well first of all first and foremost the Bible tells us to this is not this is a matter of obedience to the church.
Speaker 19:12:19It's a matter of obedience. The Bible tells us to do it and we're not doing it. We're indirect as obedience. So but we also have to think what the results are. If you are compromised morally what's going to happen to your church if you don't deal with it.
Speaker 14:12:38OK. Well we could probably think of some examples from the bible of individuals or churches who did become compromised and we can see the results.
Speaker 18:12:47Yeah. Sampson. Sampson. Sampson was morally compromised. He was you know he was a judge of the book of Judges. And you know of course everybody knows about Samson and his hair and Delilah but a lot like the Superman of the Old Testament right. Right. Right.
Speaker 13:13:06But when a lot of people don't realize is that he lived a life of really of compromise and rebellion he was constantly doing things he wasn't supposed to do. And God had a lot of grace on him. Let him get away with it many many times.
Speaker 12:13:24And I think we could pause for just a second because we can we can see Sampson as a fantastic example of what the church has become know generation. Oh yeah. Ok so Samson he could do some incredible things right. I mean Sampson was capable of things that nobody else could do he was capable of defending himself against a whole army of philistines with nothing except the jawbone of a donkey. Yeah right. This guy had supernatural strength. He carried away the gates of a city which you know could have been thousands of pounds on his on and on top of shoulders. Yeah. And we don't know the full extent but but what I'm saying is that Sampson was capable in his flesh of doing amazing things. And and obviously we know that it was not just his flesh that got empowered him to do these things.
Speaker 12:14:10OK. But that is such a perfect picture of the church so much of the church has become powerful doing things in the in the in the power of the flesh. OK. So when we talk you know we we like to criticize the megachurch so often. And one of the mistakes that the megachurch makes is that we think that we can replace the Holy Spirit with smoke and lights and talented drummers and amazing musicians and preachers in tight pants you know and and we think that we can put on a production and we can and we can out entertain the world. It drives me crazy to see churches that are trying to do better entertaining than the world can do which we will never be successful at doing. But we were making the comparison to Sampson because Sampson is he's a perfect example of what the church is. I mean we can put on our huge productions. There was even a church in Phoenix some of you guys know that that church that every year when they do that Christmas play they empty the whole Phoenix Zoo and have it marching across the stage elephants and camels and you know all all all come to see the birth of Jesus.
Speaker 4:15:21You know I'm serious. So so that's not for like the Ark Encounter. No no no. It is a Christmas special. Oh well yeah. It's amazing they say that they're coming to get on the ark or something. No no no they're all coming to witness the birth of Jesus. Oh absolutely. They're following a star. Yeah right. So it's actually a helicopter like a positive thing like that. But yeah you see what I'm saying though is like we can put this amazing production on and we can have people come from far and wide to come take a look and then because it's compromised.
Speaker 10:15:56Ultimately Sampson is such a tragic story because he had so much potential and he didn't reach it. Yeah. And that's what the churches yes. So many churches are incredible potential but but because we rely on the wrong things we rely on the flesh we rely on the power of organization rather than the Holy Spirit. And we miss out on so many things that God has for us.
Speaker 19:16:21Yeah. So and what happened to Sampson. He became impotent powerless. He lost his power completely lost his power. As a matter of fact he woke up one day and he shook himself like other times and did not even know that the spirit had departed from him. So. Wow what a picture of the church world today. So with that in mind you would think that the church would practice discipline rather than shun it taking Sampsons lesson. They would say we don't want to become like Sampson. Let's practice discipline rather than shun it. Why don't they. Is it because the Holy Spirit already left and they have no idea or. Or is it really just because you know what if we continue in the power of the flesh we can attract people to fill our building. We don't necessarily care whether they're converted or not. We just need people in the building. Yeah well is that what it is.
Speaker 9:17:25Well yeah I think that's exactly what it is. Dave you gave an example. You gave a great example when you filled in for me I was out preaching in Newport News last week. And so you graciously stepped up to to preach a sermon here in Virginia Beach last week and I listened to your sermon.
Speaker 4:17:42I'm so sorry. No I was I was impressed. I said something good. Wow.
Speaker 14:17:49But but what you said was about the time when Jesus fed the 5000 plus their families and. And they he he started handed out you know fish hoagies for lunch one day. And is it any surprise the next day they showed up with their hands open saying Jesus is lunchtime again. Yeah. So that's a really easy way to fill a church. Every single one of you knows that if you want to have a successful outreach you better serve hotdogs. If you cook up some hotdogs you're going to get double the normal amount. Then you would just for a regular movie night. And that's because when is when there's so you know is there something in it for me then I can show up. OK but then but Jesus when when the time came and they were came they came with their hands open again.
Speaker 12:18:40And he said to them he said to them hey you didn't come here because I did miracles or because of the things I said you came here because you need to fill your belly again. Right.
Speaker 4:18:49And then he taught some things that were controversial like eat my flesh entering my blood tell you what you're hungry hungry thirsty human flesh and drink my blood.
Speaker 12:19:00Yeah. Listening to that sermon on Sunday morning. And they were they were very confused by that and it said that that day many of his disciples followed him no more so and that was OK with Jesus.
Speaker 10:19:14It was OK for a few people to be to be disclosed clouded from the followers of Jesus. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 20:19:22And he was not put off by it at all. In fact he turned to his own 12 disciples and said You guys are going to leave to newses you know not put off by it at all.
Speaker 9:19:33Yeah. So the goal of the church is not just more butts in chairs. Right. The goal is not just how many people can we entertain. The goal of the church is to prepare us for heaven.
Speaker 10:19:45And if we're one of the ways one of the critical ways that we do that is through church discipline and through correction. And so that's what we're getting at tonight. So let's let's get into what does the church discipline look like and what exactly do we mean by church discipline. Well first of all maybe a better word is correction correction. So if you are a parent hopefully you understand why correction isn't necessary for your children your children come into this world with a lot of sinful behavior pre-programmed. Right. You never have to teach a child how to steal how to lie. They come in. They come into the world with these talents and abilities. Yes. And it is the job of parents to correct those things. That is the definition of immaturity is not being able to control yourself right. And so it is a parent's job.
Speaker 10:20:43Every parent every father who's listening needs to understand that your job is to correct your children is to show them to give them the tools how to control themselves so that one day you won't have to correct them all the time. Right. And hopefully you do this very early is a window I start correcting my children as soon as you possibly can. You know I'm you know I'm talking even a year old. You can begin to correct and I'm not saying beat your children on a daily basis you know. I'm saying that there is such a thing as good and godly correction.
Speaker 11:21:20Yes. Right.
Speaker 8:21:21Asher Davis son is over there walking around shaking correction bad but actually correction is evidence of love like like Gaston just said fathers who love their children must discipline them. And actually we find this example in the book of Revelation Chapter 3 Verse 19 when Jesus says as many as I love I rebuke and I Chaisson therefore Buzzell ism and repent. So discipline and correction is absolutely necessary not just as parents but as a church.
Speaker 10:22:04Yeah that's right and we can't call ourselves children of God unless we are corrected by him. The Lord loves. He also Chasen's and rebukes and and scourges every son he receives. That's right. And so this is evidence that we belong to God and it should also be evidence listen that this is true of your family. I hope that you don't let other people spank your kids. You want me like that. That is the job of the parent. So you know that's why we teach. It's not okay to discipline other people's kids. It's not okay because that that is the realm of parenthood that is. I can identify my children because those are the ones that I have been given the authority to discipline and correct. That is the evidence. So my children are named Dragoon. That means I have the authority to correct them.
Speaker 17:23:00That is also evidence that they are mine that they belong to me and that they always will. And so that's what we're saying is that this shows the connection. It's also true with God.
Speaker 21:23:12God shows that we belong to him through the action of discipline and correction and this is also true in the church right.
Speaker 8:23:21Yes. Right. So the Apostle Paul speaks to this quite a bit throughout his letters to the church. And so in the book of first Corinthians chapter 5 he he goes through. I mean really the whole chapter is worth a read. We won't read the whole thing. You know just for sake of time. But but long and the short of it is like this in the first book of Corinthians the first letter to the Corinthians he tells him to kick a guy out of church. Yes he does. And rightly so. But in the second letter.
Speaker 14:24:00Yeah but we should we should talk about a little bit more about that. Right.
Speaker 4:24:03So it's not for no reason. No oh no no. It wasn't just like listen I don't like that guy I don't like his face. You see the tunic he was wearing. Yeah it's not.
Speaker 12:24:13So there were some serious things going on in this church some seriously wicked things. And I think that we could say that there are also similar things that happen in churches all across the world all around the world. There are wicked things that go on and and they remain untouched.
Speaker 16:24:28In fact when we read in that chapter in first Corinthians chapter 5. Let me just get to the first couple verses here. He says reading from New Living Translation I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you something even that pagans don't do. I'm told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.
Speaker 10:24:56And so. So this is this is some grievous stuff that's going on right. There's just some some wicked stuff. And it's obviously a matter of public knowledge. It's not like something that is being hidden but that people know about it obviously because here's the Apostle Paul writing to them from some far distance away and he's saying hey this is still going on in your church. And look what he says in verse 2 you are so proud of yourselves.
Speaker 16:25:23Like you know like there's nothing wrong and you know it's amazing to me to think about that. There are probably churches right down the street that even worse things that are happening in there. You know in their congregation and the same is still true. You're so proud of yourselves. You think that nothing's going to happen. But Paul's words are you should be in mourning and in sorrow and in shame. The church needs to be ashamed of this kind of thing. And then the next sentence is you should remove this man from your fellowship.
Speaker 11:25:58Wow. Kick the brother out because he is not acting like a brother.
Speaker 10:26:02OK. This is not what saved people do. So I mean that's critical. We understand that you know in in first Corinthians chapter 5 we get an example of somebody who is living in obvious sin they're not repenting. It's not like they fell into it. Oops I Did It Again. Please forgive me out. I'll never do it. Pastor please. I'm so sorry. It was a moment of weakness. You know that's one thing but this is habitual and continuing sin that is brazen. And it's public and is known about. And so this is why church discipline is something that's so necessary because if that is not judged if that's not dealt with in some way then it's not just a problem for that person or those people who are involved in it it becomes a problem for the whole church.
Speaker 8:26:52Yes. Yep. There are some scriptures that explain that.
Speaker 14:26:58So Jesus spoke about in and in that same chapter in first Corinthians chapter 5.
Speaker 10:27:05He spoke about the Levin. LEVIN Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 13:27:08He says verse 7 verse 7 6 and then 7 write your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little Levin Levin's ole ole lump therefore purge out the old leaven that you may be a new Lumb since you are just since you truly are unleavened for indeed Christ are Passover was sacrificed for us by the way the reference to the Passover was unleavened bread. Right.
Speaker 12:27:39Yeah yeah. So Levin here being a picture of wickedness or sin and so Jesus was the unleavened bread that was perfect and pure and holy not polluted.
Speaker 13:27:49Right. So if you've ever made bread before i to you know you have a bread maker we have a bread maker at our house.
Speaker 22:27:57What's her name. His name is kidding.
Speaker 18:28:03We both make bread. But when you actually add the yeast and just a little tiny bit I mean you've added you know a cup of flour and a cup of water and all these other ingredients than the amount of yeast you put in this thing is like nothing but that little bit of yeast when it gets in there.
Speaker 15:28:25It's yeast is basically like a bacteria and it just goes throughout the bread and that's where you get all those little air pockets in your bread from it causes the bread to rise.
Speaker 23:28:35And so a little a little bit 11 leavens that whole lump.
Speaker 15:28:39And so if you didn't have it in there it would be the bread would be like a you know the unleavened would be unleavened. It would be like a PITA you know. You know like pita bread or or a tortilla.
Speaker 6:28:51Yeah. And so the idea is that sin is like that sin when it exists in a church it tends not to be isolated it tends to like a virus spread very quickly from one person to the next. And so do you want to have a whole church full of wickedness like that. Do you want a whole church where. Well so-and-so they're doing this so why can I do it you know. Right. This is something that spreads like wildfire. Yeah. And and can have devastating effect. It could it could destroy not only the church but families marriages. It can destroy. It just has like a forest fire that's happening in California right now. Yeah it is. They said that it quadrupled in size overnight last night and it went from 25 square miles to 100 square miles in one night.
Speaker 18:29:40That's insane. But that's that's like that's like 11. And that's like sitting in a church. You know it just spreads like wildfire just like that. And Paul here says to purge out the old and do you have any idea how hard that would be to purge 11 out. I mean it's it's like the only way you can do it is by kicking it out.
Speaker 6:30:05Yeah separating writing it. So that's what Jesus talked about he said if you're if your hand causes you to sin then shop it off. And you know obviously we don't want. He's speaking metaphorically not figuratively. We don't want to encourage people you know to buy machetes or meet those people who are like.
Speaker 15:30:28So do you take the Bible literally. I look OK. I take it literally where it's meant to be taken literally exactly. And figure to you know metaphorically where it's supposed to be. You think that Walsh did a podcast about did they do that. No it was great. Yeah. Yeah. Well you take it in context. Is this an allegory here. Is this a metaphor or is it literal. OK. That's how you take it when you read it in context. It's not too hard to know exactly.
Speaker 24:30:56And so anyway when Jesus says chop your hand off he's saying that you know if your hand is leading you to sin you better to live your life as if your hand doesn't exist on your body or if your eye causes you to sin gouge it out. It's better to go into heaven having one eye then to go to hell with both eyes. And so he's trying to get the seriousness of how bad sin really is and we don't really catch that. And but we really should we should. Jesus had a perspective on it he could see how how destructive sin really is and when we allow it to be. This is true on a personal level too. When you allow sin to exist in your life personally it causes devastation it causes. Areas where your at your heart becomes darkened and callous toward the holy spirit and God wants to do things but he can't because there's compromise in your soul and just as true as it is for an individual person. It's also true for the church. If there's compromise if there's wickedness that has not been dealt with if there's a sexual immorality if there is continued unrepentant sin if there's people living together who are not married. That's a big one these days. Yeah. If there is if there's homosexuality that is not. Judge if there if there's heterosexuality that's not judged right outside of the bonds of marriage listen these are the things that have to be have to like the leaven have to be purged so that the church can be pure and holy.
Speaker 15:32:30So how do you know Paul says to purge the leaven out. Listen to what he says next. Listen what he says in the context of this just in the verses prior to where he says the little 11 leavens whole verse for first Corinthians 5 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker 13:32:50When you were gathered together along with my spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So he echoes this in first Timothy. Chapter 5 verse 20 he says those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all that the rest may also fear. So he's he's not just saying hey you know bring him in the office. Talk to him and then just very nicely let them know listen and have to watch out for a while. He's saying do this in front of everybody. Can you imagine. Wow.
Speaker 6:33:36So I imagine that there are extreme cases where where that would be it would still be a great practice to use where somebody is completely unrepentant. Now we have learned over time and through many circumstances that you know you don't want to bring up the offending brother to this to the platform on Sunday morning and say he's getting kicked out of the church and here's why. You know I mean that would be so. You really think that that you know reconciliation may never be possible. But but yeah this is intended to be something that the church is involved in. And yes if somebody asks about these things then I think it is it's right for the pastor to tell people but you know not to publicly put people's business.
Speaker 24:34:24No no no. So but. But the the the rest of the batch of dough has to know why that was part of the batch is not there anymore you know. Yes. And I think that that there is value in that.
Speaker 6:34:38The value is there in that scripture from First Timothy those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest may also fear. This is why so sometimes pastor will rebuke all of the men at the same time even though only one guy has done something. Delia Pastor Campbell was he was great at this. You know he would have Armand's discipleship on Sunday mornings and you know he's fired up about something he found you know he walked into the cleaning closet and found you know as a symbol from the drum set or something like that. Why is that. And so you know we'd all be sitting there together as men in the Men's Discipleship and.
Speaker 17:35:18And so you know are you going to leave your house all messed up like that or are you going to do that in your place. You know and he'll call it out like that. And that's exactly what it did it so that so that he can at the same time deal with every man that was there in the church and there's power in the public rebuke. You know you don't want to use that all the time as a pastor who you know I also deal with men who have fragile egos just not you know you Dave Oh.
Speaker 4:35:50Just one or every every man who grew up without a father pretty much you know some of that with you.
Speaker 24:35:57Well the thing is that so many men can't receive that well because you know they take every little rebuke as though you hate them you know. It's a personal attack against them right. But but there is value in being able to to communicate the unrighteousness of sin on a public level rather than just on an individual basis because it does bring a fear and hopefully it saves the next person from entering in to that same scene. You know it becomes a warning sign.
Speaker 13:36:34Yeah. So what constitutes church discipline like what are we talking about here is it just you know everybody gets kicked out the first time or. Or what.
Speaker 17:36:45I think that might be good. You show up Sunday morning prayers everybody you're all out everybody out.
Speaker 15:36:54We don't want to do that now. But there are some biblical principles here and so there are stages you know there are levels of discipline.
Speaker 18:37:02So we want to just go through those quickly.
Speaker 6:37:05First there is the verbal rebuke Yes and this is kind of what we were just referring to is when you discover that someone is making bad decisions or in a in a pattern of sin in their life it always has to be the first that comes from the Matthew 18 principle that Jesus gave us. If your brother sins against you you go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. Now this is given in the context of an offended brother. You know if you've hurt me in some way and then the first step is always to go to that person and tell them I've been offended I've been hurt and and try to work it out. If he hears you you've gained your brother and I think there's wisdom in that as a church pastor and not just the pastor but you know mature believers in the church that we should deal with.
Speaker 6:37:55You know people who are making bad decisions and you know you don't want to overstep your bounds either. So like it as as someone in the church there are some issues that you really should leave to your pastor or assistant pastor you know leadership of the church. You don't want to get involved in people's marriages. You're right it can be sticky situations there. But but what I'm saying is that mature believers can do this. This is not outside of the realm of the of the church pillar. You know someone who's who's living for God and sees when someone begins to stray in the wrong direction you you should lovingly approach people and say hey I see this happening in your life I see this decision and I just really want to tell you man. You know this is going to lead to bad things if you don't deal with this. Can I pray for you. Is there something I can do to help you. Is it can we work on this together you know.
Speaker 21:38:48And so that's a very good first step right. Yes. So if he hears you you've gained your brother. Anything to add there Dave.
Speaker 18:38:55Well I think that's a really great sign of love. Yes. You know if you see people you know going down this path that path and you just go. They're grownups whatever and they just they can make whatever choice they want. That's true. But is it really showing that you care about that person to just leave them alone. Yeah.
Speaker 9:39:17Or that you care about your church. I care about your church your. You want your church to be a place of holiness right. Yeah. And so this is evidence that you not only care for that person but you care for the purity of the church that you go to.
Speaker 8:39:32Right. Right. So the next is time.
Speaker 12:39:38Well hold on before we get there. So the the Matthew 18 principle goes then to verse 16 but if he will not hear you take with me one or two more that the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Speaker 13:39:51Yes. OK so. So just go into the brother doesn't work. OK. Now we're going to ambush you know get to where we're going to run an intervention.
Speaker 25:40:03So here's here's how I've seen this works really well. If you find yourself in possession of information that is critical about somebody like I don't know like you discover that a brother is cheating on his wife or something right. What you need to do is first approach that that brother who's living in sin right. And say hey is this true. As you know you want to make sure you're not dealing with just hearsay or rumors you want to get to the truth. And you go on to say hey you know if somebody said this I just want to know what's true. I care about you what's going on. And then if it's confirmed that that is what's going on. So what what I've what I've seen a strategy that works really well is this OK this is really serious. This is something that that you know that Pastor needs to know about church leadership needs to know about this.
Speaker 25:40:56So what we want to do is I'm going to give you 48 hours to go tell a pastor. Yeah yeah. I have seen this. I've seen it work out this way. And so what that does is it gives somebody the opportunity to make the right decision. Yeah. Ok so I'm going to I'm going to wait for 48 hours and I'm going to I'm going to hold this and this comes from the proverbs you know. You know a soft answer turns away wrath. It comes from you know the ability to not spread lies and rumors and all those things. So I'm going to give you 48 hours and after the end of 48 hours if you have not told the pastor then you know I have to. I have to because of the nature of this. Because how serious this is. Then if he doesn't know about it by that time then then I'm going to have to go tell him. So this is your opportunity to do it well.
Speaker 18:41:49Yes I've seen that happen and I've seen where the person didn't go tell the pastor and the person who said you know you got whatever it is 24 48 hours or whatever was had to go and I told you I was going to do this. Yeah.
Speaker 9:42:03Yeah. And then at that point it's not you it's not you know it's not your fault you've removed yourself from the situation. You've given a person an opportunity to do what's right and hopefully they do it.
Speaker 14:42:15And then the end of that verse in Matthew 18 says that even if the church does not hear him if if he still does not change his ways then what comes next is is what we're going to talk about the rest of this this episode which is separation from church.
Speaker 26:42:33So we're going to take a quick break. As soon as we get back we will talk about. Church discipline and the correction of. Having to go out of church for a time. So stick with us we will be right back. On the last podcast. And we are back on episode number 40. The blast podcast we're talking about raising the bar industry standards.
Speaker 10:44:50Church correction and just before the break we were getting to the end of the Matthew 18 principle. Jesus gave us the instruction that if there is a brother who is offending that we should first go to him and tell him his fall. And if he if he repent at that time that's that's fantastic. If it's a serious matter you should you should bring in a couple other people for mediation. And if we don't hear by the mouth of two or three witnesses then what does the next step we have there Dave says if he refuses to hear them tell it to the church and then if he refuses to hear the church let it be to you like an IRS agent tax collector or it could be worse than that.
Speaker 15:45:33Or he then let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector. So I just want to make sure that everybody knows that Jesus says the tax collectors are heathens indeed indeed indeed. Yeah I fully agree. No no argument for me.
Speaker 17:45:52He did not say he then or he said he and that's right.
Speaker 12:45:58Yeah we are now introduced to the idea of separating from the church an individual or individuals based on a pattern of sinful behavior a pattern of unrepentant sin that is not dealt with.
Speaker 27:46:16We could say that it's perhaps a lack of self-control or or just an unwillingness to deal with certain sin in that person's life. And so the idea is that we can't allow this.
Speaker 12:46:27This is going back to the same the same illustration of the leaven in the lump that if it's not dealt with it's going to have dire consequences not just for that person but for everyone that is around them right.
Speaker 16:46:41Yes yes. And so that's what we have in church correction.
Speaker 9:46:45So as as a pastor of a church the leadership of any church that we have to from time to time it falls upon the church leadership to have to do this from time and time.
Speaker 10:46:58And let me just first say about this that it is whenever I am faced with this particular thing it's something tragic. It's yeah it's to me it's the last thing that I really want to do with my life you know. But if you don't wake up long you know just like you know it brings me no joy to spank my kids when they're misbehaving. Right exactly. And if it does bring you joy there's something wrong with you bro get your head checked out. OK. There's someone who loves their children and cares for them does not enjoy bringing corporal punishment on them just like a good pastor of a good church brings in has no joy in exercising this kind of discipline by putting people out of church or out of ministry. So but but it has it must happen from time to time. Yes. OK.
Speaker 10:47:49So let's talk first about the time away from ministry because this probably is more common than the latter. So this is a situation where you have someone in ministry. And this is not the episode about ministry standards. If you we will include in the show notes the episode that we did on ministry standards and why those are so critical. But we do have a set of ministry standards in our churches. And there's a reason for that. We hold people who are in ministry to a higher standard for certain things and when they're not meeting those standards. This is not necessarily that they're involved in unrepentant sin. But if if someone is not a refuses refuses to meet those ministry standards then we we as a church leadership have the tool of being able to remove them from church ministries platform ministries and various things like that.
Speaker 27:48:45Now this can also happen not just as a result of not following ministry standards but also as a result of sinful behavior bad decisions that are made.
Speaker 12:48:58For example someone is not tithing you know I've had to deal with that situation where you know somebody is an usher and they're not paying their time. It's like you know I can't let that continue. How can we do that. You're holding the basket every week passing it around the church asking people to give and you're not.
Speaker 14:49:17You're not tithing. You know it just doesn't make any sense it's not right. It's not holy. It's like you know how can I stand up there behind the pulpit and ask people to give and read the scriptures about tithing. If I'm not tithing myself it doesn't make any sense. And so this would be a good example of when we can sit people down from ministry for a time now. If you've lived for God for any amount of time you've probably had this happen to you. I know I have. It's happened in my life when I was a disciple back in the Chandler church.
Speaker 9:49:52There's many pastors who have to be removed from their ministry position because of bad decisions because of you know the biggest thing that is happening in our world today is the problem of pornography.
Speaker 12:50:04And we can maybe save that for another episode as well but if it's found out that a man is involved in looking at pornography it's something that's ongoing continual it's become a habit. It's a pattern in their life. Then we can do that we can remove them from a position of ministry. And that's the right thing to do. It's the right call. And so I mean I think we should talk about how what kind of effect that would have on people. Both the church and I mean where do we draw the line of. OK. There's some correction necessary here. What do you think.
Speaker 13:50:41Are we talking specifically with that or with with any.
Speaker 9:50:46No. Just to be being removed from them from ministry of church.
Speaker 18:50:50Oh well ministry really is a privilege. Yes. So it's you can almost look at it like like I go back to the Raising Children analogy you know sometimes we give our children special privileges.
Speaker 19:51:06You know maybe it's home video games or you know playing with their friends or something like that or going over friend's house or something and oh well you know what.
Speaker 18:51:18You did not do you know. You know you rebelled or you made a bad decision.
Speaker 13:51:24Well I tell you what I'm going to remove that privilege for a time. And so the next time you consider that behavior again you'll remember this.
Speaker 19:51:34And you say what's more important to me having this little bit of fun or is you know you know rebelling or you know or this privileged that you know. So if that makes sense. You know. Yes.
Speaker 13:51:50You know this platform ministry where I'm singing playing guitar keyboard you know or or even ushering or something like that something where I'm in public ministry. What's more important that or this little thing I like to do. Mm hmm.
Speaker 9:52:09Yeah. And so there's great value in that as as a pastor I can I can deal with certain behaviors by removing someone's ability to publicly minister. And so there's great value in that. So if that's happened to you. I guess the audience that I'm speaking to tonight is I want to make sure that those you know if you're hearing this and you have been removed from ministry and understand that nobody has any joy from removing you from that ministry.
Speaker 5:52:40Yeah. They have the you have the sniper scope on your way and mess up.
Speaker 12:52:47And the hope is always that you would be restored and that's why we always put a timeframe around this. Yes sometimes you know it varies from situation to situation. But you know typically it would be a three month or a six month period or maybe a year if it's something that's happening again and again.
Speaker 10:53:05But the idea is that this is not an eternal thing you're not. We're not condemning you to hell. But yeah basically in three months we're going to come back and revisit this and see where you are and to see if you're ready to be reconciled. Right. Right. Because we want you to be. We want healing to take place. OK. So then let's take that next step and talk about not just time out of ministry but when it's appropriate to put someone out of church.
Speaker 17:53:35Now having dealt with these kinds of situations it's always so painful you know because we spend so much of our time trying to get people to come to church. Right. Right. Like every Saturday and you know every time you go to the gas station I'm looking for people hey maybe I should invite that guy to church and we re agonize. God bring those people to church. And now all of a sudden you have to we have to tell people you can't come to church. It's so crazy. You know on one level but it is exactly what the church needs to do in so many situations. We are you know just like with every with every healthy plant.
Speaker 16:54:26Sometimes some pruning needs to take place. Jesus he said he would he would trim the branches that are unfruitful and that's what this is all about.
Speaker 11:54:37Right. So Paul we've kind of cited these examples already.
Speaker 20:54:44But when he's talking about putting people out of church he refers to it as delivering them unto Satan. Yes. And the two examples that I see the two circumstances that I see are number one a sexual immorality. Yes that's the big one. That's the big one. So that's first Corinthians 5. The other one is first Timothy 2. Chapter 1 verse 20 he's talking to Timothy and he's talking about two brothers that he had to put out of the church in. I think it's in Macedonia where he's referring to.
Speaker 13:55:19And he says of whom are high Mathias and Alexander who had delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme blasphemy which could mean a lot of things could mean a lot of things so but basically the two examples that we see are are blasphemy and sexual immorality.
Speaker 12:55:41Right. And the terminology that Paul uses there delivering them up to Satan. That's interesting to me. We were looking up at some commentaries on that.
Speaker 10:55:51And Matthew Henry made an interesting had an interesting thought about that because the Satan is the prince and the ruler of this world. And so we could say that by putting someone out of the church we are delivering them back into the world. Yeah. And if any of you have ever tried to sin after salvation you know that it's not the same. Now it's not fun anymore. All of the all of the the the fleshly desire you know is different now you know once you become a child of God you just ruined the world. And so that's kind of what this terminology means to deliver them back to Satan. It means you're going back to the place it's like going back into Egypt after you've already been to the Promised Land. Yeah. To experience what you came from. Right.
Speaker 13:56:45But the garlic. The garlic remember I remember the garlic and gave us some thought about that. Yeah of all the things they could remember garlic.
Speaker 4:56:53I mean I like some garlic but I learned how to like garlic in Romania Transylvania and leeks.
Speaker 13:57:00They like the leaks to yeah the car remember the garlic in the leaks. Was there anything else you remember that the garlic anyway.
Speaker 12:57:10So yeah they're in the in first Corinthians chapter 5. Paul is saying that this needs to happen. This needs we need to put these people out of the church. There's so much imagery from the old testament of this you know where God commands his people not to be intermarried with with the people right. He says don't even mix the kinds of material in your clothing because because this is a picture and this is also where the dietary laws come in we don't mix. You know our dairy with our meat product we don't mix them together when we're cooking we don't get kosher laws.
Speaker 20:57:48It's where they came from was the boiling boiling meat. It's in its mother's milk right.
Speaker 12:57:54And so all of these things are intended as a metaphor for God's people are supposed to be different from the world. Yeah the church is supposed to be a different atmosphere from the rest of the world from from the world in sin.
Speaker 10:58:07And so by delivering someone back to Satan we're saying we're saying that it's not that there's no hope for you as we want you to experience the weight and the consequence of your sins so that in three or six months you can come back with Joy you can come back and say I was such an idiot when I did that you know and I'm so glad that God has grace on me.
Speaker 16:58:31So yeah what we want to do next is we want to share with you a little hopefully a little wisdom about how to survive a time of correction because from a pastors perspective. OK let me give you this this truth. My pastor is Pastor Campbell and he amazes me with his ability to redeem people. The Chandler church is a place where people can be redeemed. OK where were not just sinners who come off off the street can obviously get saved but I have witnessed how pastors in families who have gone through insanity have who've made terrible decisions who've gone through rebellion you know and even criticized Pastor Campbell to his face. And somehow something about the ministry and the cello church is a place where those kinds of people can experience redemption and can even come to the point of entering ministry again again. And I can think of I can think of examples I can count them off in my head of people who cash who have done things that are almost unthinkable you know. And if it was me in that position I'd say dude just forget about it. Leave. I don't want you here anymore. Yeah. And. But Pastor Campbell has has this amazing redeeming ministry and can bring these people back.
Speaker 10:60:03It reminds me of a great illustration from the World War II era when when we were fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theater and one of the things about the Japanese culture is that they had this they glorified the kamikaze. Right. So right sending yourself to die into battle and so they had all these Japanese kamikaze fighters and so if they would get hit with one bullet they would they would take their plane and use it as a missile and crashed into a ship or something and so obviously whenever that happened you not only lose the plane but you lose the pilot right. Right. So that's the kamikaze mentality. Americans on the other hand had a very different way of approaching things. Yes. If you if you're playing got hit with a bullet while you eject as soon as you can you know you know get out of there so hopefully you can parachute and can save you.
Speaker 10:60:55You know we can and so over time the it began to have a great effect on the war in the Pacific because every time a plane went down a pilot went with it on the Japanese side. But every time a plane went down for for the allied forces we were able to save those those pilots would be able to save them rescue them. They could fight another day. Exactly. They could go get in another plane and there's lots of stories of these amazing pilots who would get back in another plane and fight another day. And so that has an effect over time. And so there is there is value in redeeming people.
Speaker 15:61:28I've heard stories too of Japanese fighters who at the last minute said you know I don't really want to die. So they would just bail out at the very last minute and the Americans would save would save them. And it blew them away. You know. You're going to let me live you know. And yeah not only are we going to let you live but we'll let you come to our country and be an American. After this war is over. It's just unbelievable to them and and you know and they're forever grateful. You know they were there were once a kamikaze pilot trying to kill Americans and now America is redeeming them.
Speaker 9:62:07Yeah and we can use that same illustration for what we're talking about tonight. Maybe there's someone in the church who you know the planes going down. The crash is about to happen and for people who are going to go through a time of correction I think your choice is the same. You can either go down with the plane in fire and you know crash and burn and you can use it as an excuse to go out into scene and get angry and get bitter at God and bitter at the pastor and bitter at all those church people.
Speaker 10:62:35Or you can pull the lever and let your parachute. And for a time you can be separated from the house of God. And eventually you can be restored you can be redeemed. And that's that's the hope of all of this correction that we're talking about is that we want to see people we want the submarine to come underneath you and pick you up. Yeah. You know when the time is right we want that to happen.
Speaker 20:63:01Yeah the band disciple actually has a song called kamikaze and it's about that very thing when when somebody is basically going down insane and they make mention of the fact that whenever that's happening they always are trying to take somebody with them. You know they're always trying to blow somebody else away when they when they're going down. So one of the things one of the ways that you make it through is to not take anybody else with you. Yeah how many times have I seen this when somebody is put out her you know sat down and they get all bittering kink. The first thing they do is they try to go and take some people with them hey you know being put out so you come with me.
Speaker 12:63:41Yeah yeah. Try to find support. And also when it's sexual in nature you know usually there's two people involved in that type of situation and so there's a great possibility that one person goes to the other and say Hey I just got kicked out I guess you're coming with me right.
Speaker 14:64:00So let's go through these steps real quick and then we're going to we're going to wrap this thing up. These are steps of how to survive the time of correction. And we want you know we want to provide this as a way kind of as a roadmap of how to successfully be redeemed to the church because obviously like we mentioned at the beginning that there's the letter from First Corinthians where Paul has to put the dude out.
Speaker 4:64:25But then in the second Corrente that Scripture by chance in second cry didn't get it in second Corinthians.
Speaker 12:64:32Paul you know there's been some time between the two letters and now Paul is writing to the church and he's saying to them I know that in the last letter I told you to get this guy out from your presence. We can't have this happening in the church.
Speaker 16:64:47But that second letter he then comes in and he says OK now the time has come where it's it's time to redeem this person it's time to bring them back into the fellowship. It's time to restore them. And so that is the goal that's the goal of all correction is that we can see people being restored but the problem I see so often is that is that that's not happening for so many reasons. And usually it has to do with that person. It has to do with the person who's in the correction that they don't handle it well. They don't take correction.
Speaker 12:65:21Well I mentioned having to rebuke people when when especially from a fatherless generation and they take it the wrong way they take it as they take it personally and various things. And so in that situation it's very hard to correct people the right way. Well
Speaker 11:65:40this is also true when you have to put someone out of the church oftentimes if you don't take it well there's really no hope that they will come back.
Speaker 10:65:50So once we get that scripture Dave will read it for you. OK. So let's look at the first one. The first sign that I can tell you is if you've been faced with a time of correction and being put out of the church I would say the very first and most important step is repentance. I mean repentance is the very first thing that we have to do in order to come into the Kingdom of God right without repentance. We can't even make it to the next step of salvation. Repentance is not just for the sinner on the street who separated from God. Repentance is for every believer and especially in this situation. Repentance is. It means a change of direction and repentance requires humility. So if you if you have come to that point of being having to be corrected by the church and put out by the church you've got to be able to humble yourself and that means to admit that there is a problem.
Speaker 10:66:57Gosh I have seen people who will not admit or will not own up to their mistakes. And I can tell those people who can be recovered and those who will never be recovered because they won't humble themselves constantly defend themselves they constantly make excuses for why they did things. This is what Adam did in the Guard and lord it was the woman that you gave me point fingers at somebody else but really all of those things that are not ultimately going to help you. Ultimately what has to happen is you've got to own up. You've got to say like Jacob you know my name is Jacob like David. When when Nathan pointed his finger in his chest and said You are the man. David could have been puffed up in his pride and said Well whatever but because David humbled himself he was able to be restored. So step one I would say his humility and repentance repentance means a change of mind. Change of Heart. Change of direction. OK so second thing that I can say is don't use the time out of church as an excuse for more evil.
Speaker 12:68:09So I've seen people make this mistake that OK well I guess God's finished with me.
Speaker 24:68:14I guess nobody likes me. So I might as well jump off the deep end and live it up right.
Speaker 12:68:21This is not the reason why we put people out of church so you can have an experience in the world. It is so that just like Jesus said deliver them to Satan so that the flesh may be destroyed so that the soul may be saved. Right. Right. Right. The goal is not OK this is my excuse to go party and drink and live it up. No you're still a Christian right. Yeah. You're still someone who is striving to be right with God and you need to remember that.
Speaker 15:68:48I think that's a really great point because when somebody is put out for you for a sin their automatic assumption is I'm no longer a Christian. That's right. And so no you still are.
Speaker 16:69:01That's right. Just because you're out of the church doesn't mean you can't stop being saved right. You know we're not putting you out because you're no longer saved. And so even though we're putting out putting you out of the Fellowship of the church it doesn't mean that you are cut off from God. I mean he's everywhere. Now we understand that as a result of sin there's a natural separation the Holy Spirit departs for a time. But what I've seen I've seen some people go off the deep end and go crazy but I've also seen other people who use that time as a way to get closer to God. Right. And they find their faith in a way that that you know they had forgotten about.
Speaker 20:69:45Yeah the church is not able to cut off your relationship with God.
Speaker 10:69:49Absolutely. But you can do that. Yes you can. So we can't do that. But you can. I think this is one of the biggest reasons why people don't recover from these times is simply because they don't see themselves ever being able to recover. But that's not the that's not the reason why we do this as a church and as a fellowship. We want to see people restored. So I think a great piece of advice is just remember you're still Christian you're still you still have a testimony. And even if you've made grievous mistakes you can you can find redemption and healing if you treat this the right way.
Speaker 5:70:28Yes absolutely. So in Second Corinthians we'll come back to that in a second.
Speaker 10:70:35OK. OK. So another word for the wise if you want to recover from a time of correction I would say remember to do the most important things when you don't know what to do. Just do what you know to do. That's Pastor Mitchell sermon right there. Yes.
Speaker 21:70:54And that is read your Bible. Remember to pray.
Speaker 11:70:59Witness to the last. And here's a crazy one. Pay your tithe. Whoa whoa. Mind blown. You say. Are you saying Pastor that even when I'm not coming to the church that I should still pay my tithe. Why would I to. Why would I do that.
Speaker 5:71:24Dave you have a good answer for that to obey God.
Speaker 16:71:29But but even if I'm not going to the services and not enjoying the presence of God and even if I'm not benefiting from what the church is doing I should still pay my time. Of course you should because you're not paying your time. Just so you can get something out of the church right. The reason that we're paying our tithe is is a matter of our heart. And if you want to be recovered in your faith. This is a perfect way to keep you attached to the church even if you can't come. You know you can still pay your tithe and show the pastors show the people of God that you're still connected. That I'm hoping one day to be redeemed. Yes. And I think that that makes things so much easier when it is time for you to come back. Say Pastor look my heart was in the right place because you know I still want to be redeemed as it is it something that I can be and as a pastor I can see if somebody is you know been paying their time faithfully for six months straight even though they're not coming.
Speaker 17:72:30Unlike man you're better Christian than I am. I don't know if I would do that. No but that's an amazing sign that you know just to make up your mind even though I'm not feeling it. Even though I've you know there's all these emotions. You know the devil is lying to me and telling me I'm not worth anything. But check this out devil I'm going to pay my tithe.
Speaker 13:72:54Even when I'm not going to church. How much power does he have. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you. And you don't want a financial curse on top of already being cut off from fellowship exactly like make it even worse. Yeah.
Speaker 14:73:09So. OK. So let's close this out by talking about reconciliation. That's why the scripture second quarter comes in.
Speaker 20:73:15Are we ready yet ready we're ready. So in a second Corinthians chapter 2 verse 5 Paul says If anyone has caused grief he has not grieved me but all of you to some extent not to be too severe this punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man.
Speaker 13:73:36So that on the contrary you ought rather to forgive and comfort him less perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him for to this end. I also wrote that I might put you to the test whether you are obedient in all things. Now whom you forgive anything. I also forgive for if indeed I've forgiven anything I've forgiven that one. For your sakes in the presence of Christ less Satan should take advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices. So he is actually referring to the same guy.
Speaker 10:74:20We don't have that confirmation. It doesn't lay it out exactly but most likely yes has got to be the same person because he's referring to the first letter that he wrote.
Speaker 20:74:29Right. And he was actually saying I was putting you to the test to see if you'd really do it. Yeah and you did.
Speaker 13:74:36And so you forgive him. You know I forgive him too. Yeah.
Speaker 15:74:40And I know I urge you to reaffirm him your love for him. So this was not like oh he's evil and just punish him. You know this was no this was something where we wanted to end up restoring this person exactly.
Speaker 10:74:55And and so this is where it can become difficult though because oftentimes when someone has to go out of church there have been affects. There have been consequences. Maybe they have.
Speaker 12:75:09Gosh one of the worst things is when some dude comes in the church and he sleeps with one of the faithful girls you know he he beguiles her. And now so we have to put that guy out of the church and we've got to put this girl that we love so and maybe a teenage girl from you know one of the daughters of somebody in the church and gosh that has consequences that play out.
Speaker 16:75:30Yeah ripple effect. Absolutely. And so so could you imagine seeing that guy maybe you're the father of that girl and now the time has come for him to be restored to the church like dude I don't want to see your face ever again again. But you see you see what I'm saying is that sometimes when there are sins like that and the time comes for restoration this. So if if being put out of the church is hard on the person that is going out the hard part for the church is on the flipside.
Speaker 21:76:05Yeah when they're coming back in. Wow. Now you're absolutely right. Now we have to embrace the same person that for a certain amount of time we've been saying you need to stay away. And now we're going to flip that again and now we're going to redeem and we're going to reconcile and we're going to bring you in. And we're going to love and comfort you and we're going to pray for you and we're going to we're going to leave God with you and we're going to welcome you back into fellowship. That's hard to do. Yeah. It could be very hard to do now.
Speaker 15:76:36No. Well not really off subject but is there any case where somebody is just completely excommunicated like they're not coming back. Yes. OK.
Speaker 10:76:46Yes it is possible and it is usually in the case where they have gone through a time of correction. This is usually in the realm of sexual sin. OK. And so we've put them out already. They've done a six month stint. Time out of the church and they've come back and they've been reconciled. And then it happens again. OK if it's a repeat offender if it's something it's a pattern and things don't change they may get another time of a year.
Speaker 14:77:17You know we as pastors we want to be as patient and giving as possible. You know I've I've seen people be put out once for six months and the second time for maybe a year and then they'll even come back after that. If it happens again that's the point. You know three strikes something that's good policy. OK. OK. But the idea is again we are hoping for redemption.
Speaker 9:77:40We are hoping that this person is going to change that that they're going to get closer to God. But it continues to be an in a pattern in a habit that doesn't change. And yes there is a time for excommunication. There is a time that we put them out and we say look there's you've done too much damage to the church you've hurt too many people and maybe it's time for you to find another church. Yes there is time for that.
Speaker 15:78:06Maybe redo the seven times 70 times. Oh gosh. Are you on 491 brother right now is the time you're out of here. No.
Speaker 12:78:16OK. But let's talk about reconciliation because this is such a critical part of someone being restored to fellowship. This is I think how the church treats people who come back is so critical to them continuing to have a fruitful spiritual life. So Jesus in the Beatitudes Matthew fivers 9 he said Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the Sons of God OK.
Speaker 16:78:44The peacemakers the makers of peace. I could make the case that the entire gospel is wrapped up in that idea of making peace. The entire message of the Gospel is a holy God in whom there is no sin there is no darkness not a shadow of turning in his character. He is perfect and holy and righteous. There is no sin in God. That's why he can't have any part with sinful people like us. So there is this chasm of separation between a holy God and unrighteous. Rebellious wicked people like we are. Jesus came to die on the cross shed his blood too to bridge that gap that eternal gap that you can never you can never overcome it on your own. And God what he does is he takes the initiative by sending his son to bridge this gap through the blood of Jesus. We are sins can be paid for and that bridge can be gapped that that connection between a holy God and unrighteous sinners can happen because of what Jesus did on the cross.
Speaker 16:79:54So no wonder people if Jesus was such a great maker of peace so we have to mention what kind of peace did he make. The reason that there was not peace. The Bible describes the wrath of God against sin that sin is his moral enemy. That anyone who is active in rebellion against God. The Bible says that all who are in the flesh are at enmity with God that means their enemies that God is at war against sin. Jesus came to be the original peacemaker. He made peace between God and a sinful world. Moon OK so that's why he says when you are active in this activity of making peace making peace whether that is between two individuals or whether that is between a church and a sinning brother. They shall be called the Sons of God. We are never more like Jesus than when we are making peace. Well a holy God can be friends with wicked sinners like us and a holy and righteous church can receive back a sinning brother through the power of peacemaking.
Speaker 14:81:12So there's a lot to be said here about reconciliation and we are already we're already gone over our time but let's wrap this thing up and I want to talk and finally about the story of the prodigal son.
Speaker 10:81:24OK so this story in Luke Chapter 15 is such a perfect example of the Gospel at atwork the older brother he blew it.
Speaker 8:81:34Man Oh yeah big time.
Speaker 16:81:37He did something that was unthinkable. He demanded his inheritance. And we know that that inheritance was something that was supposed to be his.
Speaker 10:81:50After the father would pass away right away. Yeah. So this is the younger son. So therefore the the first born gets a first born inheritance. The younger son would get an inheritance as well. At the time of the death of the father but he says Hey Dad you're you're not important to me. It's like you're dead to me. Why don't I take my inheritance now. Right. And that was the offence. And so this father a he said Son this is a terrible decision. It's going to separate you from everything that you love. And that's exactly what he did. He took the inheritance and he went too far country and he wasted it the inheritance was gone.
Speaker 8:82:31He found himself eating with the swine and wishing that wishing that he could eat the the pellets or the yards the pods that the pigs. He wasn't even eating as good as the pigs. That's right.
Speaker 10:82:48So finally he comes to the end of himself at the at the at the at the slop with the pigs and he has a realization he says even even the hired servants in my father's house have it better than I do right now. Maybe they've got plenty of Brydie maybe dad would have mercy on me and just don't just allow me to be one of those hired servants back in the father's house. And so that was his expectation and we know that when he came back the father he could have put his finger in his face and said Who do you think you are.
Speaker 21:83:22You think you're going to just come back to this house and you're just going to know you turn your turn yourself right around and you come to me again and once you've learned your lesson.
Speaker 10:83:31He could have said that and you know there's a there's a side of me that would want him to say that you know right like you. You think you think that you're just going to restore all that inheritance just by showing up all that money that I worked for all that time that I put into storing up for you and you just took it and ran and wasted it all and so there could have been animosity there.
Speaker 11:83:58But the father was a peacemaker and he received the son with gladness and we know that he put a royal robe on him.
Speaker 10:84:07He gave him a ring. Jill Dougherty added he gave him the sandals speaks about authority and speaks about purpose all of these things and so so many of us are like the older brother in the situation. OK so the older brother is watching this and first more. I'm a first born so I can I can kind of understand this dad. This kid deserves justice. You need to come down hard on this guy why are you spoiling him. And so as a firstborn we you know if there's any firstborn children in the audience and you know what it's like when when the younger brother or the younger sibling is getting a pass you know the thing that you got spanked for over and over and over. Younger brother he's getting a pass. Dad can't even see what's going on.
Speaker 4:84:53Right. That never happens. No. Well you're the baby so you don't have to talk. Oh OK. So here's the older brothers what's happening.
Speaker 16:85:05He's saying Dad you're giving him a pass. He needs judgment. He need. You need to deal with this kid. And he's more than that he's saying Father haven't haven't. I've been faithful more faithful to you than this younger brother you never made me a huge mistake like you made. Yeah. And so he has his beef is with. And so what I'm saying is that literal litter is when it's time for the sun to be restored. There are people when it's time for the sinning person to be restored to the church. There will always be the spirit of the older brother at work. Yes. Saying pastor there needs to be more judgment you haven't been hard enough on this person. You let them slide. There will always be the spirit of the elder brother. But what did the father say to this older brother Luke 15 Verse 31 son. You are always with me and all that I have is yours. OK. What it means is that this this older brother forgot who this was about. This is not just about the brother. This is about God in heaven. This is this is my relationship with the Heavenly Father. And so everything belongs to him.
Speaker 21:86:22So even if you perceive injustice happening in your church I want you to know that God is keeping good books and when when Jesus turned to Peter one day and he said hey listen Peter one day you're going to you're going to pay a huge price for following me one day. You're gonna go places that you're going to be taken around and you drag you to. Yeah. And it's going to be bad. And Peter's first reaction was Well well what about this guy.
Speaker 4:86:50Yeah. Hold on a second. If that's going to happen to me what about what about John.
Speaker 10:86:56And so we're always pointing the finger. But Jesus said to him Peter this is not about you and John this is about you and God this is your connection to him and God will make it right in the end. And so that's what I want to say to churches. We are called not just to execute the time of correction but we're also called just as much to try to bring reconciliation. One of the mistakes I think if if somebody has been gone missing for a few services you know and then all of a sudden they come back after a month or something. What's the question they always get when they come back in church where are now. Where are you been. And they hear the same question like 20 times. Where you been. What's been know and if we're not careful that can be judgmental that can be it can put people off. Awkward mix and it is. It's like. What's wrong with you. I think we should just be happy to see. And usually that's coming from a good place.
Speaker 15:87:58You know we you out of genuine concern. Everything all right.
Speaker 10:88:02But the church should always be a welcoming force. Let's bring people back into the fellowship between brothers and between us and God. OK. Final thoughts Dave.
Speaker 18:88:14Well that exact thing is I think where the megachurch goes wrong and you know oh we need to be a place of welcoming. So even if people are in blatant and unrepentant sin we need to just continue to be welcoming while they're doing it instead of dealing with it and then welcoming them back after a time of you know after a time of rebuke chastening correction we just allow them to continue. And so that we can be quote unquote welcoming. Yes. Yeah that's their fatal flaw. It's lowering the basketball hoop. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 14:88:51OK. So we hope that this has been helpful to somebody out there. And if you have any comments if you have any experiences that you've been through that you'd like to share with us maybe on this topic we'd love to do a follow up episode and maybe in our next episode we can we can share your experiences so please reach out to us. The email address is the blast at mail dot com. It seems that we've been getting most of our reaction there. You can also reach out to us on the various social platforms on Facebook Twitter and Instagram. You can also leave us a voicemail. We do have a voicemail. You'll see a link for the voicemail. In the show notes takes you to a Web page where you can record a little voicemail that we can use in our next podcast episode.
Speaker 28:89:35But if at the beginning of this episode we mentioned that we've got some big news coming up next so stay tuned we're going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll share that with you before we wrap this episode up so stay with us. We'll be right back. So many nights the rain.
Speaker 29:89:53Will come when the happiness begins to wane. I'm sick to my stomach just watching away.
Speaker 30:90:05You don't get many many times I told myself that was OK. I was surprised the same. Was. True. My. Come to terms that I'm burnt and both sides of the road when I'm hoping that self-control would keep people from choking off the thing that used to be father.
Speaker 29:90:57Didn't have the way of making I'm not going back way before Christ in my life. I couldn't do without but. Appointed. By. And the. Longer. You wait the pain you feel for. The things that. Make your daddy. And. All of the. Other kids. Everyone. Feels. The same way. You. Can't. Make. Life. With.
Speaker 31:92:22Your back. The last podcast episode 40 as we told you at the beginning we got some announcements. So here we go. Yes you've waited patiently.
Speaker 10:92:35You have endured this a long and arduous episode. Another one for that poor person who the blast podcast is being used as torture. Yes that's another one. So OK here comes the big announcement is this. So we want to produce a quality podcast for you. We don't want this to be something that is thrown together at the last minute and pretty much these 40 episodes more or less have been such tattling on ourselves.
Speaker 14:93:10Right now we want to be open and transparent you know millennial generation loves transparency so that's what we're doing now though we want to open up to you about the process of making a podcast. It is not an easy thing. First of all we have to come up with a topic to speak about. We have to put together an outline of scriptures and topics that we want to do that takes time. We got here tonight at 8:00 p.m. after a long day at work. Both of us. And now it's past 11. So just just recording is three maybe four hours at a time. And then once we have everything recorded then we're going to process audio files we've got to edit and mix down the files that's we're talking about another two or three hours of labor for each and every episode.
Speaker 15:93:58Then there's show notes and putting together everything on the web page and uploading it. That's that's another couple hours of work there.
Speaker 10:94:05Yeah. So we just want you. We're not trying to make you feel bad. We were not asking for your pity. We just want you to know that there is there is a lot of labor of love going on with the production of this show and the reason we continue to do it is not because we like to we like all that work behind the scenes. The reason that we do it is because we have had seen a genuine reaction of people who are listening to it. People like Aaron the letter that we read at the beginning that once he found it he he listened to every episode within a short span of time we talked to another brother from Florida who did the same thing a few months back. And so we see that that is helping people and we want that to continue. So here's our big announcement. We have a new goal for you. Our new goal is this that we want to produce at least at a minimum one very good episode per month. And I think that's that's reasonable for us to to to a reasonable expectation that we can meet. And it's also good because we want you to be able to count on at least one episode that you can listen to each and every month.
Speaker 11:95:16Now we also have another part of this announcement which is that there is not just time expense involved but there is a cost involved yes.
Speaker 14:95:28So let me just explain to you a few costs that we've had to be be absorbing over the last few years that we've been doing the blast podcast. Number one we have a Web site. We have the we have the host for the podcast which they're charging. It's not a lot but it's something it's 12 dollars a month. And so that's just been coming out of our pockets. And we've been happily providing that so that you can have a great experience online and that so that also we can see our statistics of who's listening and where they're listening and how often you're listening and all those things that are important for us to know. The other thing is that we have equipment so up until tonight we have been using Churchie equipment. I mean we have two microphones that we just stole off the stage that normally our singers are singing into and then we've had a couple of microphones that were donated to us. Sadly both of those microphones stopped working. You know electronics it happens. Yeah. So we have a goal to replace those nicer microphones with some new ones or some used ones possibly some some nice one. We also have a little mixer that we have been using the church. We'd like to get one that's dedicated for the podcast. OK so we're not whining here.
Speaker 18:96:43No we're just we're just sharing like like you said being transparent with you sharing some goals and and and some real costs. And there's little a little bit inside baseball here I guess. But just to let you know what. What really goes into these.
Speaker 10:97:00Yeah. And so there's hours and hours of labor and there's also a nominal monetary cost that is going into these things. OK. Now having said that we want to include you in the process. We think that there's a lot of people listening to this podcast who are getting some value out of it. Hopefully the reason that you've listened to this podcast for over an hour and a half is because you are gaining something from this. And one of the things that's true in life is is if you are receiving something that it is perfectly healthy to pass that on to pass that blessing on to become a conduit of blessing Jesus is just like Jesus said You are the I am the vine you are the branches a branch receives life from the branch and then passes it on down to the leaves into the fruit. And so that's what we want to we want to give you the opportunity to do that. And so we are announcing tonight drumroll please.
Speaker 10:97:59We are announcing the opportunity for our listeners to absorb some of the cost for us in the past we have tried to play some commercials and advertisements during our podcast. To be honest we never really wanted to do that and it never really worked anyway. We never actually had any results out of that. So we want to make an appeal to you we we have put up a page on patriotic dotcom. It is patriarchical slash blast podcast. It is a place for you to sign up for a monthly pledge. It's a monthly donation. We can say and we have set the price at three dollars a month now three dollars a month is nothing right. I mean that that can come automatically out of your account. You wouldn't even notice it. Most do.
Speaker 16:98:53And so we're hoping that we could find maybe 20 people maybe 25 maybe 30 40 people maybe who could donate three dollars a month to the cause so that we can get the kind of equipment that we want to get so that we can feel as if the time that we're spending is worth our while. Anything here Dave. Am I not getting Winey.
Speaker 18:99:18No no no no no. And like they were just being real with you. I mean there's a there's a time cost and and there's a there's a financial cost. And so if you'd be willing to pledge a meager three dollars a month it would really go a long way. You know what. Based on the numbers that we're seeing of people who are actually listening to this podcast. If everybody if every one of those donated three bucks a month that would be amazing.
Speaker 10:99:50And what that would do is it would free up. It would free us up to be able to make better quality yant. So what we're doing is we are giving this this opportunity for you to to to support the blast so that we can make this guarantee we will produce an episode every month. Right. We will do that and we can make that promise to you if we get to the point where we have a lot of people supporting maybe we couldn't make a promise to do it even more often and more often. So we're going to put that carrot out in front of you if you want and more of the blast podcast than this is a great way for you to show us that this is something that you appreciate something that you value in real dollars. If it's worth three bucks a month to you then hey by all means just check out that that link will put it in the show notes. And hey if if if you don't think it's worth it that's that's fine. You can keep it for free. It is awesome and we have a appreciation for everyone who listens.
Speaker 18:100:46Absolutely. And we're not going to cut you off from listening if you if you don't become a patron.
Speaker 4:100:52We don't have the ability to do that.
Speaker 20:100:55Right. And the nice thing about patriation is is that based on the response that we see we can later make different levels of of patron membership so to speak.
Speaker 18:101:09So right now there's a there's a one level and it's three dollars a month later on if if we see you know a good response maybe we can make a five dollar level as well.
Speaker 9:101:21And that means you be receiving bonus bonus material you know.
Speaker 15:101:25And so we'll just so we'll just see how it goes for now. And we are setting it up for three dollars three dollars a month.
Speaker 14:101:32This is a great way for you to support what we're doing and also to to show the love by getting a T-shirt so you can go check out that that link will we'll have it in the show notes again. And so we hope that you'll join with us on this journey. We've been doing this for a couple of years now and we want to make it better. We want to make it better for you guys. And so we're going to we're going to do our best to make a good quality product. If you would come in and support us we would we would richly richly appreciate that.
Speaker 5:102:03All right Dave closes out in prayer man Father we thank you for this time you've given us Lord we ask that you would God use our lives God. And I pray that you would use this podcast God to reach not only disciples but perhaps even the last god maybe who some who don't know you and and would come to know Jesus Christ as a result of this podcast. We thank you for all that you've done in our lives. All that you're going to do we give you all the glory in Jesus name we give you praise Amen amen and thank you for listening to the blessed Podcast Episode number 40.
Speaker 14:102:36We will see you next time.
Speaker 32:102:38God bless. Thanks for listening to the black podcast if you like what you heard. Please leave us a review on iTunes and share with someone who will love it if you don't like what you've heard.
Speaker 33:102:48Forget we said anything. Sign up to receive new episodes or listen to previous ones on our website. The last stop. Until next time live forgotten. Use your brain. Read your bible. Love your family. Listen to your pastor. Hey you're tired.
Speaker 34:103:04And don't be stupid.