Episode 39 – The Celebration of the Biblical Family
Guests joining us for this episode:
- Chris Brown, a disciple in The Potter’s House Church of Portsmouth
- Sean Maguire, Director of Grassroots for the Family Foundation of Virginia specializing in the areas of Parental Authority, Life, Marriage, Religious Liberty, and Constitutional Government
- Pastor Adam explains why he has brought these guests together for this interview
- Drag Queen Story Hour Movement across the nation
- Sermon on the Drag Queen Story Time
- The Celebration of the Biblical Family Event and why we did it.
- The possibility of Public Library Outreaches?
- Rosaria Butterfield and her amazing book: Secret Thoughts of An Unlikely Convert
- Sean Maguire shares his testimony and makes a powerful statement to pastors. You will have the opportunity in this culture to minister to people struggling with LGBT sexual desires. It’s important how you address this. Sean explains how the pastors in his life were not well-equipped to handle these specific sins of homosexuality.
- Discussed the reality of identity sins. Homosexuality does not define who you are but is a sin along with many other sins.
- Chris Brown shares his testimony and struggles with homosexuality.
- Please listen carefully to these testimonies so that you can have compassion on those who struggle with same-sex attraction, and realize that the Gospel works for them too!
- We close this episode by lifting up the glorious design of the home in marriage and family. The role of singles in the church.
Please visit familyfoundation.org for more information on these matters and email Sean at email@example.com for any questions/comments you may have.
Thanks again for listening!
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Narrator:0:07On this episode of the blast podcast Pastor Adam dragoon and Mr. David Smale are blasting across the interwebs. Digging deeper into the practical application of God's word for our lives. Snowflake beware: we're blasting off on this edition of TheBLAST Podcast.
Pastor Dragoon:0:45All right we want to welcome you to Episode 39 of TheBLAST Podcast. We're so glad that you're here. My name is Pastor Adam Dragoon and I am joined by two amazing guests today. To my left is sitting a guy who might be familiar to some of you. His name is Chris Brown. Say hello, Mr. Chris.
Chris Brown:1:02Hello Mr. Chris!
Pastor Dragoon:1:04Everybody does that when I tell them to do that. He's from the church in Portsmouth, Virginia just a short drive across the water. It's not that short. And we are so glad that you're here. Also we want to welcome in Mr. Sean Maguire who is here with us from the city of Richmond. Say Hello Sean.
Sean Maguire:1:24Now I'm tempted to say hello.
Pastor Dragoon:1:27And we're we're also very glad to have you here with us you are from the Family Foundation of Virginia. Can you give us a little more information about the organization that you're from and what you do there.
Sean Maguire:1:40Sure the Family Foundation is a group of people who came together back in the 80s to stand up for parental rights. What's the main issue that they joined together for they realized that things were going on in the state and local governments that needed attention so that families would be protected from policies that would otherwise negatively impact them. So we've been running as a public policy organization since then. Our five core issues now are parental authority Life marriage religious liberty and constitutional government. I've been with the family foundation since January and I'm their director of grassroots. So I reach out to people let them know these issues that are going on and how they can contact their legislators to make a difference on the way our state and local governments are going.
Pastor Dragoon:2:29Wow that's seems like it's a large scope of topics that you guys are focused on.
Sean Maguire:2:35Yes. We've gone beyond public policy. We also do Pastor summits every other year we invite pastors from across the region to join us to discuss issues that are facing the church as kind of equipping seminars and addressing how to confront culture as it comes into the congregations that they have. Just earlier this month we had our pastors summit on the topic of ministry in an age of gender confusion with Dr. Ryan Anderson and Rosaria Butterfield and others talking about how pastors can answer questions about what it means to be male and female image-bearers in today's culture where gender is being taught in some schools in Virginia. It's a social construct and not actually anything important.
Pastor Dragoon:3:23So for those who are maybe first time listeners or maybe you haven't listened to TheBLAST Podcast before. Our whole purpose is to inform and educate and also inspire new Christians both old and new disciples. People who are striving for ministry and who want to be those change agents in our culture. And one of the things we were talking about earlier was being able to shine a light in the darkness. So let me let the audience in on why we're all here together. Today we did something that was a little bit unusual for for us anyway you know as as a church and as a fellowship we do a lot of outreach we hand out a lot of flyers we invite people to know Christ and we do a lot of on on the street witnessing and and so we're very evangelical. And so that occupies a lot of our time as a church and we want to we want to win the last and that's what it comes down to.
Pastor Dragoon:4:25So about three months ago my wife goes to our local public library. We have two daughters and they go to the library pretty often to get books and study things and my wife also does home school so they do their home school studying there at the library.
Pastor Dragoon:4:46And so there on the library wall on a on a stand is a sign that captures my wife's attention and it says drag queen Storytime with Gillette black sounds like a razor. It right there in the middle of the Virginia Beach Public Library. It's shocking to her it's amazing. Is This a joke? Am I on camera? You know. And see. And so we begin to look at this. So the library is actually promoting this event to bring children into the children's area of the library. And who is this aimed at. This is not aimed at a mature audience of 18 plus. No. This is aimed at children as young as two toddlers and up. And so they're going to invite a drag queen into the public library and the drag queen is going to read stories to the children of course reading about inclusive city you know accepting people as they are about you know be the person that you were intended to be. And so this is mind boggling to us as parents that this is happening right under our noses. Less than two miles away from our house. So we're just completely confused.
Pastor Dragoon:6:10And how how in the world are we supposed to respond to this. So we went through the motions of contacting the library staff. Is this really something that you guys are doing. Oh yeah yeah. So we talked to library director we we talked to somebody at the city. We went through as many people as we could think of. We sent e-mails we made phone calls. We even took steps to go before a city council meeting and voice our complaints like this is not something that we want in our library especially targeting our children and children as young as 2 years old. So finally I kind of reached a point of it's aspirational like there's nothing I can do about this. I mean I was so inspired and so just bothered by this that I even ended up preaching about it in one of our services.
Pastor Dragoon:7:00And you might even be able to go back in the archives of our of our church sermon podcast and find those. But but beyond that I mean I was able to pray about it. Obviously I was able to preach against this from from the pulpit in my church but from there what do we do you know. And so I kind of came to this point of is there something else that I can do to possibly present a different perspective. And so that's where the idea for celebration of biblical family came up. And so about a month ago I contacted the library because there was another drag drag queen story time coming up at the end of September. And so I said is there any way that I could also do an event at the library. And so they allowed me to rent out a room.
Pastor Dragoon:7:50It was obviously not in the children's storytime room. It was just a meeting room that they allowed us to use. And so they gave us the space and so we scheduled this event. And I said it's going to be like a fab Family Bible time. I made up some graphics online. I put it on Facebook. I did this and that and I'm like OK we're going to try to do something at least something to present the biblical worldview of what we. So making a long story longer. That's what we did today. Today at 1:00 on Saturday the twenty ninth of September. A few people from our church. Also Chris who's sitting to my left. He came over to help us and and Mr. McGuire who came to join us as well. What an amazing thing it was just a small group of people. But right all it was was a celebration and a presentation of a biblical worldview.
Pastor Dragoon:8:45And so I'd like to get your guys perspective on how it went because me being the organizer I have one opinion and it might be a little bit biased but I wanted to invite you guys because Chris you've got a story that applies to what we were presenting today and also Sean your life story and obviously the work that you're doing now. We're just so appreciative that you were able to come and bring maybe a sense of validation to what we're doing and what a wonderful thing. So anyway I'd like to hear from you guys what were your thoughts and what what was your reactions to the meeting today.
Chris Brown:9:19I thought it was it was a good idea I think. I think it was a really into intuitive looking for ingenuity of a good response. If I could think of one. Because to be honest I probably wouldn't have thought of that. Yeah. Perhaps the location. I feel like they kind of chose that location kind of put us in the back a little bit but in spite of that I feel like some ground was broken. And I definitely personally and spiritually. It was enjoyable to me. I felt kind of just a sigh of relief a little bit just being able to tell you know my story my testimony which I don't tell often enough. Maybe just because I'm extremely long winded. But yeah I think it was a great idea and I would definitely do it again if you wanted to do it again. OK well that's that's good here.
Sean Maguire:10:19I agree with Chris. Absolutely you should do it again. We have been seeing these drag queen story hours across the nation. It's been a concentrated push from a national group trying to get local libraries to have drag queens come in to perform read books of affirming different sexual identities and transgender ideology and reading these to like you said two year olds young children dressed up in pretty clothes and doing crafts. And yeah there have been a lot of people struggling to figure out how to respond. So when I got contacted from you and you explained the celebration of the biblical family I was thrilled because I've been seeing a lot of people cursing the darkness but nobody's been shining the light and that's what you did today I think just being there as a public declaration that the word of God makes a difference. And the word of God changes lives. That's just a powerful testimony. You know Paul encouraged Timothy to commit himself to the public reading of the word just being there and Christians gathering to gather at the public library. That was great. I really think it was an excellent response. Yeah.
Pastor Dragoon:11:35And I think I think there's an open door there that maybe we haven't taken advantage of in the past as a church as much as we really can. When I was when I called you earlier today and I was concerned about having some kind of action call to action. Yeah that's part of it is because it's one thing to just be there and you know we're standing up for what's right and to every right needs to be needs to be expressed right needs to be affirmed. And so our right to have godly biblical values. That's part of why we were there today. But I don't I it's like I don't want it just to be a one time thing like OK we did it. Now we're done right. We've accomplished what we came to do right. Obviously the goal is much greater than that and our goal as Jesus said is to win the world right to go into every nation and preach the gospel.
Pastor Dragoon:12:28And so for those who are listening that's why we're bringing you into this conversation because those action items are things that people who are listening this podcast can also be doing I without a doubt there are people who are listening that maybe there's a drag queen Story Hour that came to your town or is coming to your town. What's a good response. How are we able to do this. This is the first time I've ever heard of anybody you know doing something in response to it other than like a public protest or a fundraiser. Yeah.
Chris Brown:12:55Well I think a lot of people they want to respond but they don't know how to respond. And maybe they know how they want to respond but they're afraid of what ever backlash may come forth from that response. And I think that's why a lot of people just been kind of letting it happen. Yeah.
Sean Maguire:13:13So yeah that's sad because we let things happen like this and we let the culture tell us the way things are going in for so long. We had the the political forces behind the LGBT agenda and I don't say that to say all people who have those inclinations or those identities are that way. No they're not all political but the political groups have been they dominated throughout my lifetime. Taking taking something that was so obscure and making it mainstream going from changing it from being reviled to being celebrated by force of law in just 30 short years. And we sat by and allowed that to happen because I don't think I've ever heard of a Christian group doing a story hour at a public library and that's kind of weird. Why. Why not. There is this amazing opportunity to go and just be part of your community shining the light of the power of Christ in you and sharing that with the world.
Sean Maguire:14:23Just go to your public library and set up in time for a story hour where you can come. You could read the Chronicles of Narnia over the course of months to any kids who come and read and join. You could read any books. There's so many great books from Max Lacayo books to the story of the three trees as one of my favorites from childhood. That would be amazing. Why do we relegate Sunday school to Sunday mornings. Like take that to the world. Sure. Do those arts and crafts in a way that would actually change and transform our culture not just be the one day out of a week that the Christian kids have and the world doesn't get it.
Pastor Dragoon:15:02Exactly. And because changing culture we think of how many challenges are in front of us and truly there are amazing challenges that are in front of the church because there's been such transformation that's happened in the last 30 to 40 years.
Pastor Dragoon:15:16Like you said is and so sometimes it's easy for the church to become apathetic like OK this world is just going to hell anyway. Let's just go to our church services and let's just you know do what we know to do is raise our kids the way we know and but but at the same time the culture continues to pursue. You said that not only are they dim is this type of lifestyle. Not only are they asking for. They're not asking just for permission to live their lives the way they want to live. That would be one thing but they're asking everyone around them to celebrate with them. Right in this lifestyle that we know is destructive. And they're making demands that the government is supportive of that and we see that like with Planned Parenthood and groups that support abortion it's not enough just to let people do what they want to do but they want you to agree and celebrate with them.
Pastor Dragoon:16:11Right. And so that's the the the culture that we're facing. And so you know we we think about how many challenges there are in that as a church is how do we take even one step. You know it reminds me of that parable of all of the all of the fish that it washed up on the shore you know. Yeah. And they were all for flopping around and dying gasping for oxygen. And there's one old man who's taking one fish at a time and he's tossing them back in the ocean and somebody asks Well you're not really making a difference is still going to be tons of dead fish and he says Well it matters to this one right. One by one he tosses them as he cans of Christians in a similar way. You know we might not be able to do everything right but we can do something. And there I have every confidence that there's a public library down the street from you that has an open room where you could do exactly what we're talking about today.
Sean Maguire:17:06Yeah and you did this you set up a meeting a time for and a group of people to come and celebrate biblical family. Was it terribly hard.
Pastor Dragoon:17:16No it was not of course not. It was an online thing and they contacted me and it was actually very easy. I was surprised because I thought I was going to get some pushback. But obviously the library public library is public exactly tended to be there for everyone exactly the drag queens have taken advantage of that. So how come Christians aren't you know.
Sean Maguire:17:35Right. And I think Chris talked about it earlier about the fear of the pushback from culture the fear of the scorn and ridicule the persecution if you will from our world if we stand up for biblical truth. And I mean 30 years ago you even 20 years ago you could say I accept you as you are but I don't approve. Exactly. Today you can't say that you have to approve you have to celebrate. So yeah there is this real risk of getting pushback.
Chris Brown:18:03And I think one of the biggest fears of a lot of churches when it comes to this issue is nobody knows. No pastor wants their church to be labeled as the next Westboro. Yeah they hate it because let's be honest they are loath amongst church groups and maybe for right reasons maybe for wrong reasons they've done some things I do not agree with and I don't know where they are standing right now. But I think we can all agree their public image is atrocious.
Sean Maguire:18:36I'm not sure they exist anymore.
Pastor Dragoon:18:37Yeah well it was it was mainly just one family basically.
Sean Maguire:18:41And a few other folks that the patriarch passed away and I think all of his kids were already out of the church before then.
Chris Brown:18:48So I'm not sure if that image is ingrained Oh absolutely in the back of our minds where we don't want to be labeled as that. Yes. And forbid.
Sean Maguire:18:55Well I've been to events before where people are dressed up as though they are Westboro. They're like Westboro impersonators. And they're they're there to just pretend to be the representatives of the church and they're not Christ followers at all. They're just giving that image has been adopted and promulgated by those who want to mock the church and revile it may get hated everywhere. So it's kind of it's really sad that that is what people think of when they think of the church.
Chris Brown:19:27The attitude is now the safest places under the radar
Sean Maguire:19:30Absolutely stay away from those Christians because they hate you. I talked and this morning or this afternoon at the celebration of biblical family about Rosaria Butterfield a little bit and she has spoken about her experience being in the LGBT community and then coming to Christ to salvation. She talked about seating during that period it was hard for her to overcome the fact that she knew Christians and Bible verses. She'd seen them on placards at the gay pride parades and she knew she knew that Christians were pleased that she was going to die and burn in hell. That was the picture of the church that was presented by groups like that. That's a shame. It is. And I think again that's part of the cursing the darkness that so many of us are apt to do it's very easy to respond that way with the kind of anger and vitriol. But what you did today was to respond by shining a light. We just we talked about the way the Bible has it has or how God has ordained the family unit to protect individuals and provide that framework for society that helps the entire community thrive.
Pastor Dragoon:20:51Yeah and I think another thing that stands in the way of us becoming that light in the darkness is that we are such especially now with the way that social media basically approves what we already believe in. Right. Yes. So we can live in our little bubbles of comfort or echo chambers online. Right. And so then there's nothing that really challenges what we believe. And so you know I think about churches that week in and week out. It's not that they're preaching false doctrine right. Right they're preaching good biblical truth. They're preaching that Jesus can save. And there's lots of great sermons that are happening every Sunday. But how many of them are actually tackling the really important issues that we're facing as a church today. You know and I'm just as much as the next pastor down the street. I want to preach about Jesus.
Pastor Dragoon:21:44I want to preach about his love and His grace and his mercy and his forgiveness. And I want to preach about every parable. But at some point we have to apply that we have the lie that those truths into the everyday things that we're facing right. Absolutely and so I was kind of forced to confront this because of the the sign that was at the public library one day. And how does what I believe how does that affect my opinion about drag queens and how they are reading to 2 year olds at the local library. You know so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that you know this has been kind of an out of the comfort zone moment for me and that's what I need.
Pastor Dragoon:22:25We need those types of things to continue growing and to continue becoming more like Christ which is what he's called us to do. So hey let's take a quick break and when we come back I'd like to hear if you don't mind I'd like to hear your guys personal stories and why it would apply to what we're talking about today. All right back on the black podcast. Is grace. Housetops at the. Now don't deserve to pass.
Pastor Dragoon:23:59All right and we are back again. I'm here with my brother Chris from Portsmouth and you guys are actually brothers right.
Chris Brown:24:06Well we could be facing more heat more often than not he's referred to as my father. Nice.
Pastor Dragoon:24:14That makes me feel good because you're not actually that much younger than me. I'm really not though I feel I've really wanted to coordinate our outfits for her. I would be honored to conference. I think that would be sweet. Get some some turning heads. And we're also joined today by Shawn who's here from Richmond today. Just once again thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. For me it's been a blast. Oh Gary Pudney. And what I'd like to do if you guys are mine is both of you have really incredible stories and testimonies that are relevant to what we're talking about today. So maybe Shawn if you want to. If you want to give our audience a background of Schorer yeah.
Sean Maguire:24:57Chris said he was long winded. I don't think that's true. I spoke for well past my time earlier today and he was under his time. So we'll see how this goes on the podcast. I grew up I grew up in a Christian home and a biblical Christian family where they really demonstrated Christ to me and it was because of the example of my parents my older siblings. That led me to Christ. I wanted to be like them being kind and I didn't want to go to hell. So very young age I asked Christ to make me kind to live in me and to keep me safe from hell when I died but didn't know what it meant to follow him as Lord or to serve him with my life. And I didn't know that he was alive and active and that he had a purpose for my life and for many years I did nothing with it just went through the motions memorized all the scripture verses in Sunday School and Awana and earned prizes and scholarships actually which is really great. Really good foundation. Having that word memorized. As a young young man there are around 12 I stumbled on some erotic photographs of men halfway clothed in a sexual pose together on the internet just looking up posters. I stumbled on this immediately was enticed by that imagery and have experienced sexual desires for men and romantic desires for men exclusively ever since it's been whatever it is it's like 26 years later. That's true I'm wrong. 16 years later I'm not that old yet. I can't do math. I'm a lawyer. Lawyers are bad at math. Everyone knows. So growing up though I had a brain tumor I shared about that earlier. It was a big story but in the law the short version is through that experience realized that Christ is alive and active today. He's engaged with his his children and his church he's relational and he has a purpose for my life. So I began to pursue him as lord and follow him as lord and still experiencing the same sex sexual desires to this day. They've they've not gone away pursuing though holy sexuality is my goal. So that's the short version of my story. But I wanted to talk about the the way pastors have engaged me in this while I've been open with them about the things I'm struggling with and tempted by. We were talking before the break about the church being equipped to address this and apply it. One thing our culture says is that your sexual desires determine your identity right and your identity if you have sexual desires for the same sex you are gay you are categorically different ontologically distinct from heterosexual or straight men. So I would hear the gospel preached and proclaimed every Sunday. But for years I kept hearing my coacher and some of my peers say that I was distinct. I was different. Anyone who had those desires was not a normal man. Right. So the promises of the gospel are for men. And I began to question whether the promises of the Gospel and more to the point the commands and restraints of the Gospel actually applied to me the way they did to normal men.
Pastor Dragoon:28:35That's interesting.
Sean Maguire:28:36That is the danger of this. This adoption of an ontological category of humanity that's different from the Biblical categories of male and female image bearers of the Holy God. If we aren't men because God made us this way then do we have to follow God's word and can we receive the Gospel right. So that was really hard. And the pastors that I had they didn't know how to address that they didn't know how to apply the gospel to these questions from the culture. So it was very it was hard growing up that issue. It did begin to make me waver in doubt my identity until I found speakers and authors who have written on this from their own experience and their rich understanding of the Gospel and they made it clear to me that yes I am a man in God's image and that the imprint of original sin does not determine my identity and my nature right.
Pastor Dragoon:29:45That that is something that you're not going to hear on a typical Sunday morning.
Sean Maguire:29:50No unfortunately not.
Pastor Dragoon:29:52And yeah. It's a distinction that I think is really important for Christians to understand. And what I was telling you about Chris earlier is that you know I think it's easy for us to label people who have same sex attraction or they're gay or we use worse terms than that sometimes and we say you know that's just who they are but that's not true. That's that's not the whole truth. It would be like if for example me as a heterosexual person or someone who has never struggled with same sex attraction but it would be like if I've been saved for 10 or 20 years and you label me a whore monger as a Christian yeah right. So right. Is it true. Yeah I still struggle with being attracted to women that are not my wife. Right. Every every warm blooded male would experience that actually in some form or another. But God never promised us that we would never face temptation. Right. The sin is not the temptation. Right. The sin is when we give in to that temptation.
Sean Maguire:30:58There's also the sin of identity and homosexual desires are are a identity rooted issue. It's all at the core of who you are and that's why our culture didn't just make this up as a strategy. They're responding to the the real feelings of those who are experiencing that right. Exactly.
Pastor Dragoon:31:21So Chris why don't we at this point why don't you come in and share your experience as well. And let let our audience know what you've come from and where you're are now today.
Chris Brown:31:31Well start off I come from a swamp pretty dank over there. Are you from D.C.. I'm actually. No no no no. No the real swamp. Jacksonville Florida deer also known as South Georgia. Depending on who your team fan you Havenful Bulldog's gator. But anyway I digress. I came from your Sege actual Florida grew up there most of my life grew up in a Godly home Christian parents for the most part. We went to church every Sunday every Wednesday at Rangers. The whole shebang. I was around a lot of Christian people but I never really owned it. I never owned Christianity I never understood Christ like the adults did. I was just kind of there you know your parents bring their kids to church why not. But I never really got sent down by my parents and explained that they never really explained the gospel to me and I'm not saying that it's like a as a hit on my parents scene and they did the best they could at the time and it just you know I was one of three at the time before my parents divorced when they did divorce. I was 12 years old and I found out I remember the night vividly. I woke up to the sound of my mom. She was in a room crying because someone had called her saying that they saw my dad her husband at a gay club with a man and the days after that were kind of a blur. That's the most poignant memory I have of that incident. And then later on down the road not even a year later they're divorced and my mom is dating would eventually become my stepdad. So my dad gets custody every other weekend of me and my sisters and we go over to the house he's staying at which is with three other gay men. I didn't grasping at first you know who were these people. What was their relationship with my dad. That they were just you know some friends of my dad's ok cool whatever. But eventually over time I began to put two and two together put the puzzle together and I realized why my dad and mom divorced it. It didn't take me as long as I think it took my sisters. I mean I can't speak for them. It just seems like I caught on a little bit quicker I think. And we had no idea. And then what was actually happening every time we would go over to his house. Every time more and more influence from the gay community would begin to kind of spill out at first. The other men would kind of reserve themselves you know they wouldn't call us and stuff like that. But over time that fell to the wayside and it really just started to bleed out everywhere in we were it was full exposure. Within within boundaries of whore's you know I never saw anything ludicrous or it's obscene but eventually I would once I hit adulthood. But that's the point. So yeah. So you know every weekend a seed a new seed would be planted in my spirit and the spirit of my sisters. The devil was basically planning an orchard one seed at a time every weekend and I hadn't we had no idea we were clueless because
Pastor Dragoon:35:16I'm wondering about how your mom felt about all of this.
Chris Brown:35:18Oh yeah. So my mom has their relationship now is good. They were friends when they were kids so they still have that friendship. But she was hurt for a very long time and it didn't help when later on she found out that I came out as gay which I originally came out when I was 16 and I came out to one of my dad's friends. The only person I knew to call at the time had the courage to I should say who I thought could understand so you know. Fast forward a little bit more I graduate high school I move in with my dad and that's when I go full on it just all the Fedders all the locks are dropped and I'm in Merced full immersion. I'm drinking the kool aid I'm going out to the clubs multiple times a week job hopping from bed to bed just doing all kinds of nonsense. And like I denied myself nothing short of you know alcohol and drugs even. It's weird even though I was in so much sin there was always a part of me that would stop just short of that stuff. I don't know why. I'm guess I'm I'm guessing it was god because I'm pretty sure if I had gotten hooked on you know like hallucinogens stuff that would have been it for me. So then I joined the Navy and that didn't help at all. So now I'm on my own. Out in the world traveling around the world with money and alcohol and basically license to do whatever with whomever. And it was just 10 years of utter sin nonsense depression bitterness and wasted time and it would not be until 2016 when I came to my final duty station in Portsmouth Virginia that I finally got tired of running. And I said All right. I've had enough because I had I gotten to a point where I was mentally physically and spiritually exhausted. I was at a point where I just I I was I was actually actively seeking out God at that point not in the way that you know I didn't know how to seek out God. I said all right I'm going to go to a church and maybe somebody can help me. So I find myself often going to the steps of this Catholic Church waiting and wondering if the doors are open which they never did go figure which I'm pretty sure was the Lord's doing because he already had a church in mind and had to get there courtesy of Facebook buddy of mine in the Navy who was going to the door Christian Fellowship the church that I'm with now. He put a post on Facebook and one night I'm in my room bored out of my mind just depressed and I'm like I've got to do something I do something with my hands because I used to do a lot of manual labor when I was a kid and it get my mind off of things. So I saw this post my friend was link some time at the church he was at. So I mean you know I'll go to that I'll go do some work. You know made me feel better. Get some good valid points for volunteer work. You know my my motives were not to get closer to God or to join the church at all. But lo and behold that's what happened. Yeah literally after one night of helping to lead while I had been convinced to come to a church service and I I started talking to other people in the fellowship. I was invited over to a friend who I consider very good friend. His name is Keith and I was invited over to his house and he began to talk to me and witness to me. And next thing you know I'm at the altar and I gave it up to Christ and that said yeah.
Sean Maguire:39:33Praise God indeed.
Chris Brown:39:37Yeah I feel like I said that all in one breath.
Sean Maguire:39:40That's awesome. It's an amazing story. The lie of of our society that I keep on hearing and the lie that's inside of me the lie that's inside of me is that fulfillment will come through acting on these sexual urges that I have that embracing that coacher because it is culture it's a community LGBT community has a lot of truth to it. They are very much a community and the lie of the culture is that that will make me feel fulfilled and fulfilled. And your story Chris sets the lie so clearly that you were searching for that fulfillment I gather for those 10 years. Is that what was motivating you in that.
Chris Brown:40:24I was looking for something to make me feel accepted because intellectually I hated myself I loathed myself really. I would look at these images. I was heavily addicted to pornography and I saw I looked at my first pornographic images at the age of nine when we got our internet at our house and we had AOL and I was just online one day and I was playing my games on Cartoon Network dot com nothing crazy and then suddenly as if out of nowhere a thought popped into my head. What would a naked woman look like. And that's where it all just spiraled out of control. I looked at it a couple of times and then there was a pause for a couple of years. And I wouldn't come back to it until I moved in with my stepdad and his family and my step brother had boxes of pornographic magazines hidden which he had very poorly. So and that you know he just continued on after I moved out and moved in with my dad. You know I had free reign. I could look at whatever I wanted. So yeah. So there was no satisfaction. No I never tell you it was the only if there was ever satisfaction. It lasted for the very briefest of moments you know and usually was accompanied by alcohol.
Pastor Dragoon:41:57My pastor says it like this. He says hell always writes checks that it can't cash.
Chris Brown:42:02Yep yep that's true.
Pastor Dragoon:42:05That's true of any sinful lifestyle any choice that we make to walk away from the Lord instead of toward him. We always think it's going to be and that's why people sin because there is pleasure in seeing absolutely for a moment but it always leads to destruction.
Chris Brown:42:21Right. And the crazy thing is that I remember very vividly when my when I first came out to my dad he warned me son the gay lifestyle is a very lonely lifestyle. And I never really believed it until later on down the road. I find myself wandering around D.C. at 4 am drunk and I had just left some condo of these guys and I was just I mean by all rights you know I should have been in a ditch somewhere. But I was just stumbling around. I had done. It was just crazy. I was on a train wreck rollercoaster ride from hell
Sean Maguire:43:05yeah. And I mean everyone struggles with everyone struggles with some desire they have in them to do something that's contrary to what God would. God says it will give you life. Choose Life Day. But with those who are struggling with same sex sexual attraction they're facing those internal desires and a coacher that is crying out embrace them embrace them embrace them. This is the only way you can be happy is if you act on this. This is natural. This is good. This is right. Don't be restrained. The only reason you feel bad the only reason you don't feel full feel filled is because those backwards Christians who are adhering to some ancient book. So those Christians who are facing these kinds of struggles are being torn apart inside and from outside as well. And unfortunately that kind of approach has been reinforced by some of these groups we were talking about before the show that you know groups that are going out and saying that if you're gay then if you have these desires you're gay and you are outside of God's love. Right. Right.
Pastor Dragoon:44:19And who can determine that anyway. So but what I'd like to finish up with then is let's let's take the experiences that you've both related to us very courageously and I would love to take that and compare it to what God has laid out in his in his word and also in nature. If we compare these two decisions these two lifestyles to each other to one another how much how much more beautiful and wonderful is the God is the lifestyle that God has given to us right.
Sean Maguire:44:56I don't know if I'd say that Adam like you say beautiful and wonderful. Well. In so far as death is beautiful. The calling of the Christian world view is death death to self delf death to your own desires and the best picture of Christianity as Christ on the cross. Right. That's a beautiful image but not really aesthetically right. It's grotesque it's painful it's it's Seares all of your you know immediate gratification is not something that the Christian get to enjoy. So in the world's estimation of beauty and and goodness Christianity doesn't work. But in the long term with the eternal perspective. Right. Yes. It gives you so much more beautiful
Pastor Dragoon:45:50What you're saying is that is that the cross is foolishness to those who are saying to us who are being saved it is is the glory of God. Absolutely. What I was referring to though is the beauty that is in God's design yes the beauty though yes that's his perfect design for humanity. And even though none of us is able to achieve that perfectly the we gathered together today to celebrate this incredible design of God's family because we see that God has created a universe that is in order. And so God in even in his own even though the way that we understand him that he is three and one that is Father Son and Holy Spirit and within that there is there is there is equality there is love there is there is communication. It's a perfect representation of a family. Right? And so then when when Paul tells us about how husbands and wives are supposed to treat each other he gives us the example of OK you know how you know how Christians are supposed to treat their lord and savior Jesus in submission to Him. Well he says this is a great picture for how a wife should submit an honor submit to and honor her husband. And he says husbands likewise the same way that Christ loved the church. This is how a husband ought to act toward his wife and toward his children and his family. And so we see that in all these different arenas whether it's God himself in the Trinity or whether it's the church where there's order within the church or whether there is in the government you could say God gives us some guidelines on how the government is supposed to operate. But also he says in the family there's these amazing and beautiful operation that when we live in submission to one another and this is this this the family unit that God created. How much joy is possible through that.
Chris Brown:47:46And I think that's the key word there Joy. What I've noticed is you have two groups of people you have those who are pursuing happiness and those who are pursuing joy. Yeah. And the problem is there's a lot of people don't know the difference between the two and they think that happiness is what they need. But happiness is temporary it's fleeting. You can be happy one minute and then it'll be gone the next minute. Whereas Joy transcends the seasons of life. You can have joy but still be in tears. We'll be going through tragedy but you can still have joy because Joy comes from the Lord. And I think that's one issue that society is facing as they are chasing after the wrong thing they're chasing and that's fleeting it's temporary. And I think that's one of the roots of the issues facing the society when it comes to accepting Jesus Christ is that he doesn't necessarily bring happiness and joy and people just want to be happy. And you know it's one issue that's a big issue that the church needs to really hammer on.
Sean Maguire:48:52Yeah I think our church in the West where you know the only experience I have is in the West in our church in the West is so quick to adopt the same philosophies of the culture around us looking for this immediate gratification instant gratification like an American style where food fast food microwaves. I mean when when Chris was talking about happiness and joy I was like I'm so happy what I'm drinking the chick fillet milkshake when it's in my mouth. But when it hits my stomach and I get that heavy feeling like it's so fleeting. But the church has the best thing to offer the world which is Christ his design his his perfect order. This family that he designed the husband and wife in covenant vows together and the children that result from it as a unit. That's you know blood is thicker than water. That idea that your friendships are chosen your family you don't choose but your families with you forever. That's the way it's supposed to be. And when it's working that way it's the most beautiful thing. And it does provide the foundation of our civilized society. It provides the that the the structure the framework that's necessary for anything to function. And some people don't ever get married some people don't experience that in the church they are Christians who live their lives without ever having a spouse it's not a loss God calls to different things. And Paul talks about that first Corinthians 7 and being faithful and steadfast in whatever you're called. And what the Bible promises though is that when that fails when the family does fail whether it's through tragedy and death or through sin that breaks it apart like a husband leaving his wife and kids when it fails God promises he will put the solitary in home. That's right. There's no one who's left out of the promise of the gospel when we live it out. We provide community for one another. That's right. And singles in the church have a very important role to play in the community of the church and the fellowship of believers. So everyone has a part and is in the body of Christ. All are one. There is no distinction and that is the most beautiful message. Like our society talks about being inclusive. Right. The gospels inclusive when we talk about not even being male or female like our society is confused about that in very serious and dangerous ways that that's resulting in all kinds of mutilations and harm to kids and adults. The Bible talks about that as a reality that we you know maybe we don't experience in its totality today but that promise is real. Oh you are one in Christ and that is the best message in the world. Absolutely just joy. That's correct.
Pastor Dragoon:51:54Yeah yeah. And that's the fulfillment of what we are unable to do perfectly in human families. Like even if we had the most perfect family environment husband and wife and you know like you 13 awesome kids yes.
Sean Maguire:52:09My family was as close to perfect as you can get but still have problems still have problems and heartache heartbreak I'm sure and disappointments. Right.
Pastor Dragoon:52:17But what it all points to is what you're talking about is that eternal family that we are all together included in those who are in Christ. We are more than just buddies and pals that get together on Sundays where we truly are brothers and sisters in Christ. And partakers of his holy of his holy nature as it says in the Bible is incredible when you think about that. And so the family is is well marriage which leads to a family is such a wonderful revelation of who God is great and what he intends for us right. What an incredible revelation that is. Amen. Well I wanted to say thank you again to you guys for making time to be with us today. Sean if our listeners want to get a hold of you or hear more from you can they do that.
Sean Maguire:53:05Thank you for that. And thank you for having me today appreciate it both at the celebration of the biblical family and now on the blast podcast. It's the family foundation is something that if anyone has interest in these topics or other topics and want to get involved in public policy in Virginia please go to the family foundation dot org Family Foundation dot org. Check us out we're always active we're always involved in whether it's a statewide policy or local issue or regulations that are being pursued. We need people to be alert and we make them alert through our action alerts that we have. You can sign up for those at FamilyFoundation.org. You can make a difference. Your voice matters. We'd love to get in touch my informations on there the best way to find me is just go to FamilyFoundation.org.
Pastor Dragoon:53:55Awesome. Excellent. And if you want to meet Chris you just go to show up at the Portsmouth church.
Chris Brown:54:01I'll be there every Sunday morning and afternoon most likely Wednesday slides for a song service right. Yeah. You'll find me around I'll be haunting the pews somewhere
Pastor Dragoon:54:12If you have feedback for this podcast. We'd love to hear it. You can send us an email. Our email address is firstname.lastname@example.org. You can also check us out. We have social media presence we're mostly at the blast podcast. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. And we're so excited to wrap up this Thursday night episode. We're so glad that you joined us. And until we meet again why don't we close in prayer. Shawn would you close off in prayer today.
Sean Maguire:54:39Absolutely. When we meet again. Made me think of the Lawrence Welk Show. Father God thank you for your promises. Your word that is true and good. Thank you for the gospel of Jesus Christ that has brought us to salvation. Bringing us out of the kingdom of darkness into your glorious light. Thank you for the families that you've given to each of us and for the family of God that you've made us part of by adoption as sons in your name I pray Amen.
Narrator:55:09Thanks for listening to TheBLAST Podcast if you like what you heard. Please leave us a review on iTunes and share with someone who will love it if you don't like what you've heard. Forget we said anything. Sign up to receive new episodes or listen to previous ones on our Web site. The blast door. Until next time live for God. Use your brain. Read your bible. Love your family. Listen to your pastor. Pay your tithe. And don't be stupid.