TheBLAST Podcast

044.1 – Make Small Churches Great Again [PART 1]

May 20, 2019 Season 5 Episode 8
TheBLAST Podcast
044.1 – Make Small Churches Great Again [PART 1]
Chapters
00:00:36
Welcome & Introduction to episode 44
00:06:14
Welcome Karl, what is your background?
00:11:29
Is bigger always better with the Christian Church?
00:13:16
Busting some myths about the majority of churches
00:17:14
Describing the Grasshopper Myth
00:20:20
Lamenting a Divided Church
00:23:51
Musical Interlude - Josh Wilson - DREAM SMALL
00:25:04
FAKE NEWS from The Babylon Bee
00:26:42
Reactions from the first half of the interview
TheBLAST Podcast
044.1 – Make Small Churches Great Again [PART 1]
May 20, 2019 Season 5 Episode 8
TheBLAST Podcast
We are very blessed to welcome Pastor Karl Vaters for an exclusive interview.
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

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Show Notes for Episode 44.1

Thanks for coming back again to listen to our latest episode. So glad you're here! We open up this episode with a few programming details and subscriber updates. Our listenership continues to grow despite our irregular release dates. Thanks for your patience as we live lives outside of TheBLAST.

Jumping into the subject of our show, we are very blessed to welcome Pastor Karl Vaters for an exclusive interview. He is the author of The Grasshopper Myth and Small Church Essentials, as well as a regular blogger at ChristianityToday.com. He has 28 years of pastoral experience as a small church pastor in Southern California and has a fantastic ministry of encouraging small church pastors to make the small church great again!

Make sure that you don't miss next week's episode to hear the answer to the question that Pastor Vaters has never been asked before.

Thanks again for listening! 

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Speaker 1:
0:01
On this episode of the blast podcast pass her, Adam drag Boone and Mr. David smell are blasting across the interwebs. Digging deeper into the practical application of God's word for our lives, snow flakes be where we're blasting off on this edition of [inaudible],:
Speaker 2:
0:17
the last podcast [inaudible]:
Speaker 3:
0:36
and we want to welcome you to the blast podcast. Pastor Adam Dragoo and I'm here with uh, my buddy, Mr Dave smell. Hello. How's everybody doing out there? We hope everything is going well. It's been a minute since we recorded and we are glad to be back with you. So, uh, we've got some exciting stuff coming up for you on this episode. Uh, we've got a fantastic, uh, interview that we were able to do with pastor Karl Vaters and we're going to be getting to that in just a few minutes here, but we wanted to, um, just give you some, uh, explanations for yeah, I think those are in order. So first of all, um, if you noticed that this episode is number 44, and the last episode on our podcast feed is episode 42. There is a missing episode in between. And so we wanted to give you an explainer on why that is.:
Speaker 3:
1:26
But I think it was two weeks ago we sat down and did a, did an episode, which was episode 43 and it was made available on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Yeah, we, we attempted to do a live episode. Right. Um, and so we did that and I think there was like three people who saw it so, well, you know, again, attempted to do, so if you're interested in seeing episode 43, you can go to our Facebook page, Instagram and Twitter, actually they all three, we did a, we did a live stream on all three of those and it was on the topic of, um, of the star wars, Star Wars, Star Wars Star force. I just made up a new one force trick. No, and we, we were, we were marking the May the fourth, which was International Star Wars Day. So if you wanted to hear some Christian themes that go along with star wars, that would be a good episode to listen to.:
Speaker 3:
2:20
But, uh, so we're skipping over that. I'll hear on the audio podcast and we are jumping into episode 44 and as we do that, uh, we also just wanted to say a big thank you to our listeners out there are already, it's continues to grow and we can see that in our numbers. Uh, just in the last episode 42 which was released in four parts, uh, we see that all four of them received more than 80 listens, which is a huge, a huge number for us and it just means that our, our listenership continues to grow in the last 90 days. We've had a close to 1200 people listening to our episodes. And so we just want to say thank you. That means that all of you are not only listening, that means you're telling some people about this podcast, really appreciate it. And, uh, we want to encourage you to support what we're doing here.:
Speaker 3:
3:06
Um, you can do that by giving us feedback. We want to hear back about what you think about the things that we're talking about. Um, you can send us an email@theblastatmail.com. You can, uh, hook up with us all and all of our social sites. Um, mostly Twitter, Facebook and Instagram are the ones who are where we are active. And uh, also we would love to get uh, some five star reviews in iTunes. If you're listening to this on an Iphone, uh, we would really appreciate you, uh, going to the uh, uh, podcast store and uh, giving us a five star rating in a little review. It really helps, uh, other people to be able to discover the show. The other big way that you can support us of course is by using our patrion page. And if you have not yet checked, checked that out.:
Speaker 3:
3:51
Um, you need to do that as soon as you can. And we have a couple of levels of support that you can join in. Uh, this, this is allowing us to be able to upgrade our equipment and also to take care of the needs of hosting the podcast and a transcribing the podcast. And if you've been a, if you have benefited from these episodes, then we would highly encourage you to do as a a few others have done and uh, set up a $3 per month or $10 per month subscription and hey, what's three bucks a month? That's almost nothing. I've never heard of anything that's three bucks a month and a, and it would genuinely, genuinely, uh, help the blast podcast to continue to create content that is hopefully helping you in some kind of way. Yeah. So with that, uh, introduction out of the way, uh, we want to go ahead and play for you in interview.:
Speaker 3:
4:42
Dave has not yet seen this interview and uh, uh, so this was a couple of weeks back. I um, got in touch with, uh, and author. He has written a couple of books and he is also a regular, um, blogger and, uh, he writes posts for Christianity today. And so, um, his name is Karl Vaters and we'd have actually talked about him previously on our podcast. And the reason really is because he has been so encouraging to me personally. So the things that he has written and um, and his, his ministry, he, he is, uh, he's an advocate for the small church. And so some of the things that he has written have really, really changed my perspective and helped me on a few things. And so I reached out to him and was able to get, um, a time that we both worked out and uh, uh, called him late at night on a Wednesday night after a church service and he was generous enough on all the way over on the west coast to a set aside, a few minutes to have an interview. And so we're going to go ahead and play that interview. Um, this brought, this podcast is going to be split up into two pieces, so we're going to break it up right in the middle of his interview and then, um, in our second part, which comes out next week, uh, Dave and I will be discussing how some of the things that we learned from the interview. So we:
Speaker 4:
5:58
hope you enjoy this,:
Speaker 2:
6:00
uh, interview. And, uh, without any further ado, here is the interview with pastor carabiners.:
Speaker 4:
6:11
Well. Hello and welcome back to the blast podcast. This is pastor Adam here again, and we have got a very special guest on the line with us. I'd like to introduce you to pastor Carl Vader's. Hello and thanks for coming to the blast. We appreciate you making time for us today.:
Speaker 5:
6:27
Great to be here with you, Adam.:
Speaker 4:
6:31
Um, so let me just, uh, kind of explain to our audience a little bit about why you're on the show today. Uh, first of all, I think it's because you have been, uh, a source of income, inspiration and encouragement for me personally, uh, reading some of your articles online on your website. I believe it was a new small church.com and also, um, you've had plenty of articles over on Christianity today. Dot Com I believe. Yep. And, um, so many of them are titles that just catch my attention immediately. And me being a pastor of a smaller church, um, have been very, very helpful and useful and encouraging to me. And so let me just first start by saying thank you so much for all that encouragement.:
Speaker 5:
7:15
Oh, I, I, it's, it's a real honor. That's whenever I can hear another small church pastor who's been somehow their, their, their shoulders have been lightened even a little bit. That just really thrills my heart.:
Speaker 4:
7:26
I would love for you to take a little time in, introduce yourself to our audience and let them know who you are, a little bit about your background and why you do what you do.:
Speaker 5:
7:36
Sure. Yeah. I'm actually a third generation pastor and um, I've been in ministry for over 30 years. I've been in small churches for my entire ministry. Uh, these, my lead pastor ministry. Um, but I, I didn't really know I was a small church pastor until about eight or nine years ago. Uh, cause I just figured I was a big church pastor who, you know, and the church just hadn't figured it out yet, you know. Um, but, uh, I, I started looking around and realizing, wait a minute, it, the church keeps staying small no matter what I do. And no matter how many church growth principles I follow, I'm, I'm doing all the right things here and it's just not growing like, like it seems, you know, most of the stuff I was reading almost made it seem inevitable that if you do these things, then numerical growth will follow and it just didn't follow for me.:
Speaker 5:
8:25
And, um, for the last 26 years I've been pastoring in Orange County, California. So it's not like I don't have the quote unquote excuse of not having a lot of people around it are off from, you know, we're eight miles south of Disneyland. There's millions of people, uh, who could potentially come to the church and we are even on a main street, tens of thousands of people drive by every single day. So, uh, if, if ever there's a place that should be able to grow a church big. It's where I'm living right now and it just never did materialize. We were, the Lord helped us to take a very small and dying and sick leave church and make it, uh, you know, uh, a little bit larger and certainly much healthier and much more effective and impactful. But that was even part of my frustration. It was the church is strong, it's healthy and vibrant, we're having impact on the community.:
Speaker 5:
9:16
And yet it's still not growing. It's like, now what have I got to do to make the thing the numbers get up. I'm, I've, we'd got a good church. It's a healthy church and almost every like anytime a pastor would come and visit or whatever, they'd tell me at lunch almost every time, oh, you're not going to stay small for long. You know, and at first that was great to hear, but by, you know, the hundredth time after 10 years, it's like, yeah, you know, tell me another story, buddy, you know, say it. So it started getting very, very frustrating. And I actually got to a point where I almost left ministry thinking I'm just doing something wrong here until I had a friend kind of helped me walk through some things. And he told me, you have to figure out how to redefine success.:
Speaker 5:
9:56
And what he said was, you have to figure out what success in ministry looks like without numbers attached to it. And I, I didn't know what that meant. I said, I don't even, I don't even know what you mean by that. And he said, quite frankly, I don't either, but we need to figure that out together because this is killing you. The numbers chase is killing you. And so, uh, from that point on, I've really been on this, you know, it was a search almost obsession to discover a great principles for what a healthy and dynamic church looks like. Even if you don't have the numerical increase that everybody else seems to be telling me is inevitable. Um, and when, and then what I discovered was once you really become okay with where God has placed you and you start leaning into it and understanding, okay, let's become healthy, let's become strong, let's become effective.:
Speaker 5:
10:43
Even if we don't become big. What you discover is you really can be healthy. You can be strongly, you can be effective even if there aren't more people sitting in front of you on Sunday morning. Uh, and, and, and making that shift, uh, has helped me become a better pastor. It's helped my church become healthier and stronger and more effective. And now we have the opportunity to bless others. Cause I took my story and I wrote it in this book called the Grasshopper Myth, which, you know, it didn't seem to make any sense. Even the title of it didn't seem to make any sense at the time and yet it's really resonating with people. And, um, and now I get to, you know, blog for Christianity today and talk good folks like you and be able to tell her this small church pastors that you can be healthy, effective, and strong even while your church is small.:
Speaker 4:
11:28
Yeah, I love it. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that a lot of this comes from, you know, the fact that in America here we have this, bigger is always better mentality, but that has not always been the truth, especially when it comes to the Christian Church. Um, I think when we look into scripture, we do find a lot of, you know, small churches and small groups of gatherings of people. And, and yet these are the most effective also at the same time, don't you think?:
Speaker 5:
11:59
Yeah, for sure. I, if you take a look at 2000 years of church history, you find a handful of blips on the radar, um, uh, where large churches kind of came along well more than blips on the radar. You've got, you know, you've got the Europe has a history of building these large cathedral during certain periods of time. And certainly today in America we have the megachurch movement, uh, both of which are great, fine, no problem. I'm not anti-big church whatsoever, but we see those because they're big and because of the size of the physical buildings themselves, let alone the platforms that some of these pastors have a, again, all of which is great, but because those are big, we tend to focus on that and we start thinking, well, that is the ideal. That's what we should be striving for. But in fact, they are very rare in church history. Uh, 2000 years of church history shows a whole lot of small, uh, it is far more likely for small churches to multiply then for individual churches to grow large. And in fact, in places where Christians are increasing as a percentage of the population, that almost exclusively happens by the multiplication of small churches and not by the grilling of larger churches.:
Speaker 4:
13:12
And also if you look at, um, the, the average church around the world, I mean, I think that a mega church is, like you said, we're, we're not here to bash mega churches that they have their place and do some incredible things also. But when you look at the average church in the world today, it's, it's smaller than we think it might be in, in the same way that the average business in the United States. We think of apple and we think of Google and we think of huge manufacturing companies and, but the, you know, the real, uh, businesses that make a difference in America are the small businesses, the mom and pop shops and the two or three employees. And that's the, you know, the average size of a business in the United States is less than 10 people. And I think we also need to realize that that's also true in the church, right?:
Speaker 5:
14:01
Yeah, very much so. Uh, if you talked to any economists, they will tell you the small, small businesses, what drives the economy. And if we were to pay closer attention to this in the church, we, I think we'd understand that most of what has driven the church historically has been the small congregation. I think in America today that's different because we have had this exponential growth even. Um, I've been thinking about this lately when I was a kid and, um, I turned 60 this year, so when I was a kid was awhile ago, but when I was a kid, it was really, I mean, you could go to a very large, well church to city in America and maybe not find a single church over a thousand people.:
Speaker 4:
14:43
Yeah.:
Speaker 5:
14:44
Um, so the average church back then was about 75. It's about 85 today. The average size church. So back then when I was a, the average church in town was 75 and maybe the biggest church in a large city might be seven 50 or so. So there were about 10 times our size, which meant they had maybe a full time pastor instead of a part time pastor. They had a larger choir, they had more departments, but there wasn't a big difference, especially if you're in the same denomination between the average size church and the biggest church in town. But now that you've got the mega church where you've got thousands and tens of thousands, so now you go to almost any major American city and you're going to find a church there that's five thousand ten thousand maybe even 20 or 30,000 when that's the case. And again, there's nothing wrong with it, but it changes things.:
Speaker 5:
15:30
It changes the dynamic. So when you're running a Church of 20,000 you've got to learn a whole bunch of principles that the Church has seven 50 when it was the biggest church in town, they didn't have to worry about. But if you're at 20,000 you're parking issues alone. Right? Becoming massive issue, your departments, the number of staff that you have, your, you're working on a level of principles that you simply didn't have to work with before. So then the Church of 20,000 teaches those principles to churches have 2000 or even do a church of 500. And in a church of 500, they learn a lot from that and go, oh, we can use that too. But then a church of 50 comes along and goes, but I can't use any of that because it's just different. So what you've got now is a really strange dynamic.:
Speaker 5:
16:14
It's an unintended consequence and it's nobody's fault. But now, because of the advent of the mega church and what they're learning, the difference between a church of 50 and 500 is now far bigger than it used to be just a generation ago. Because the principals from the Church of 20,000 are filtering down to about 500, but not much lower than that. And so there's this unintended separation between the churches that is simply, uh, based on the differences in how they have to operate. Nobody is doing anything wrong. Nobody's doing anything hurtful. It's not a bad thing, but it's an under Ken unintended consequence of the megachurch movement that we simply have to be aware of. Right. Let's not put it down, but let's be aware of care of it so that when we're, when you, if you're in a church of 50 and you're hearing from a pastor of a church of thousands, you have to be aware that there's very little that they're going to say that's going to apply in your situation simply because of the size differential.:
Speaker 4:
17:09
Right? Yeah. And that's so helpful because I think as smaller church pastors and as people like disciples and members of those churches, if uh, you know, it's not like we're, we're getting offended or it's not like, you know that people in larger churches are looking down at us, but we can feel that way some times by, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've driven down the freeway inn in our city here in Virginia Beach and there's a, there's a church that's planted itself right next to the, you know, the interstate. And so they've got this massive complex, and you know, if I drive at the right time, I see an overwhelming parking lot. You going, I'm going and I'm driving to my Wednesday night service, uh, of, you know, 40 people and thinking, what am I doing wrong? And what I would love to hear from you is maybe speak to that pastor and, and uh, and understand why, um, it's not healthy for us to, to look at the success based on what's happening somewhere else.:
Speaker 5:
18:14
Yeah, for sure. Well, that's actually the ABS. What you just described is the essence behind my first book, the Grasshopper Myth. And in fact, behind the title, no, the title comes from the story in the book of numbers with the 12 spies go into the land and 10 spies come back with the report of there were, you know, we, we saw giants in the land and then they say, we seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes. And we looked the same to them. And, uh, so the premise behind the grasshopper myth, and it's even in just the first chapter, this is all laid out where if you don't see a grasshopper in your mirror, no one else will see a grasshopper in you. But if you perceive yourself as a grasshopper than the giants in the land will feel intimidating to you and you will look like that to them.:
Speaker 5:
19:00
Not because they see that in you, but because you've seen that in yourself first. And if you start feeling like a grasshopper, you start acting like a grasshopper, you state start and then you start looking at like the, the feeling you just described of driving by the mega church on the freeway on a Wednesday night. I've done the same thing and I've had exactly the same feelings you've described. And then I stop myself and go, I should be celebrating hundreds or thousands of showing the church. I should be thrilled with that. But every time there's still a little bit of grasshopper in me that just makes me go, oh, right. And that grasshopper mentality doesn't help me, doesn't help the Kingdom of God. Uh, it doesn't help anybody and then I'm less effective at my own church because I'm feeling jealousy over something that I ought to be celebrating. If it actually is a good and healthy church, it's actually reaching people for Jesus. I should be thrilled with that. Uh, and, and that, that to me is, I think the first step most small churches pastors need to get over is we have to be okay with where God has placed us and then be able to celebrate what God is doing with others, even if it's bigger than what he's doing with us. Because God had, God is not surprised. He has not upset by the size of my church. And I shouldn't be either.:
Speaker 4:
20:17
Yeah, that's, that's great. Um, what do you think about the fact that you described it a minute ago about how, um, how, what the mega church is teaching to other churches doesn't apply in smaller churches and how that creates a level of separation. I see. Um, I, I'm thankful for our church organization because we are a very tight network of churches and we support each other very well. We have conferences that we go back to. And so we have a pretty healthy, you know, a structure of churches around us. But, um, what I see in so many places is that, is that churches, even if they're next door to each other, will never talk to each other, will never support one another. And Mega churches, you know, kind of stay in their own realm and in smaller churches stay in their small realm. And we have this, uh, this really, um, uh, separated experience. We even within the same city. And do you think that that, uh, that even adds to the problem?:
Speaker 5:
21:22
Yeah, in, in many, many ways. Um, I think one of the positive things that's happening now is I think in a lot of places denominational walls are falling, uh, which is, which is good. I think we need to have good theology and good doctrine and I think we need to be protective of it. But I think we've, most of our denominational divisions really aren't over important points of theology. They're really over petty issues most of the time. So I'm seeing some of that fall, which is really, really healthy. But unfortunately sometimes it's being replaced by stylistic differences. So while we used to argue over finer points of theology and split the church over that, and what's the biggest reason that churches split now and separate themselves from each other? It's, they call it the worship wars, but it's not about worship. It's about the style of music.:
Speaker 5:
22:07
I mean really, right, that's, that's so at least, at least when we were arguing over theology, there was something about that that was important. Even if we were arguing over petty things, but now we're literally arguing, not even over the song selection as much as the style. While you're southern Gospel, you can't be forward thinking, oh, you know, you saying Hillsong, so you've got, you must be, you know, some kind of watering down the gospel heritage. I mean, it's ridiculous. The kind of ways that we look at each other and none of that division is healthy for the church and none of that division is the message that we should be sending to the community around us. That a United church is, I think the strongest testimony to a hurting and broken world. That the gospel of Jesus has something of value to bring to them because they are already in a fractured world with fractured, um, relationships.:
Speaker 5:
23:02
So why would they want to join yet another group that illustrates fractured relationships? Why would I do that? But if they can see a church that reaches across ethnic barriers and racial barriers and language barriers and even some of our minor theological barriers and recognize as we are, we are one in Christ. And even though we have differences with each other, we are going to celebrate each other. We are going to support each other. We're going to be there for each other. There's something about that that is extraordinary, extraordinarily compelling to the world. And that's why Jesus said, you know, this is how they'll know that you are my disciples. If you have love one for another, that is the most appealing thing to the people in the world is that they see in the tonight:
Speaker 6:
23:46
at church and when we're divided, it goes the opposite direction. It's a pastor, tiny little church, 40 years of love and on the broken and the super moments change the [inaudible]. Don't buy the lie. You've got to do it. Just that Jesus use you where you are one day at a time. Loving God and others as just a fun little ways. We're only you can scrape. A tiny rock can make a giant June smooth. It's crazy. Bill little down the street. Oh, dancing on Friday with your friend with special needs:
Speaker 3:
25:02
this week from the Babylon Bee. Kirk Cameron in talks to play Batman May 17th, 2019 Burbank, California. A new report from sources at Warner Brothers Studios confirmed Friday the Christian actor, Kirk Cameron is in talks to play the iconic role of Batman. Cameron was chosen for his hard edged acting sensibilities, ability to talk in a low guttural growl and his rock solid faith in Jesus Christ. Producers also confirmed his friendly smile and kindness were considerations in their decision. I can't tell you how thrilled I am to play the best gosh darn superhero of all time. Cameron said in the statement, I'm really happy to be working with Warner brothers on this film and I pray that they come to faith in Jesus through this film. According to those close to the upcoming Batman project, Cameron will bring some of his personal idiosyncrasies and beliefs to the role. Batman will be seen punching atheists and other unbelievers as he fights in the war. On Christmas in one scene, Bruce Wayne will be shunned by Hollywood because of his faith. Then Batman will return at night and inactive vengeance upon his enemies by slipping million dollar gospel tracks into their pockets. The movie, we'll conclude with a call to believe in Jesus.:
Speaker 2:
26:27
[inaudible]. Your safe space is now in danger. No blast podcast is back. All right. Right, and:
Speaker 3:
26:40
we are back. Dave, tell me, what are your reactions upon listening to this interview so far?:
Speaker 1:
26:45
Wow. Well, uh, what, what a lot of insight. You know, I'm so glad to hear somebody say these things out loud. Uh, it's interesting. We, uh, you know, we outreach every week, we go out, we hand out flyers and, um, we're really hoping for that one to one interaction with, with people in our community. And so we, we did that. Today's a Saturday that we're, we're recording this. We did that as soon as we got home. I look up in the sky and there's an airplane with a banner for a Mega Church. We invite you to, you know, the name of the mega church. And I'm going, oh my gosh. And I had that exact same, uh, feeling of that you described about driving down the freeway and seeing that huge mega church and going, what am I doing wrong? I thought to myself, well, if we could rent an airplane, everybody know who we were. And well, no, not necessarily. Um, I mean, it's nice. I mean, I'm sure they're going to get, you know, a couple hundred extra visitors this Sunday, you know, but, but, uh, but it made me think, you know, well, we do something that's extraordinary. We go out and we meet people where they're at. Uh, and, and that's something that it seems to me that only a small church can do. We're the big church has their place in the small church has theirs. And I'm glad that somebody, uh, you know, a seasoned pastor as he is saying it.:
Speaker 3:
28:15
Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, in our second part of the interview, um, there, there is a question that I'm going to ask him. Uh, that I think is really important because, uh, I can kind of hear some of the pushback in my head to what this pastor is telling us about. And, and, uh, and I, I, I wanted to try to verbalize that into a question. And the question was this, well, maybe, maybe, um, what you're teaching pastor Vader's is nothing but a big excuse. Maybe it's just, uh, you know, the reason why some churches aren't growing is just because it's a lazy pastor or he's not spiritual enough. And so if you want to hear the answer to that question, I want to encourage you to wait until next week because he gives a fantastic answer to that question. And uh, so that's going to do it for this episode. And when you come back, you're going to hear part two of the last podcast, episode 34. We thank you for listening this week and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the blast podcast. If you like what you heard, please leave us a review on iTunes and share with someone who will love it. If you don't like what you've heard, forget we said anything.:
Speaker 1:
29:21
Sign up to receive new episodes or listen to previous ones on our website, the blast.org until next time, live for God. Use your brain. Read Your Bible, Love Your family. Listen to your pastor. Pay Your tide and don't be stupid.:
Welcome & Introduction to episode 44
Welcome Karl, what is your background?
Is bigger always better with the Christian Church?
Busting some myths about the majority of churches
Describing the Grasshopper Myth
Lamenting a Divided Church
Reactions from the first half of the interview
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